Geert Wilders not guilty

[Kathryn]

If I had no money and had to feed my children and knew I would get no help from the rest of society, I would probably steal to.

Would you steal and plan elaborate fraudulent schemes and train your children to do the same, and to take part in them, or, before you resorted to such abhorrant tactics, would you take advantage of existing social programs? Now - keep in mind that in order to access those social programs, you may be required to submit documentation, or abide by some rules and regulations. But rather than see your children go hungry, or beg in the streets, or lean at age four to pick pockets, would you first do all you could within the law to be sure they didn't go hungry?

Funny how so many immigrants, even from groups which are sometimes looked upon with skepticism or even prejudice within Europe, can somehow manage to use available programs in order to avoid the very lifestyle that the Romanis seem to insist upon living.

 

[YmirGF]

Yes, it's a real pity and it stymies an objective and honest discussion.

But then, maybe that's the point.

I came to that conclusion quite awhile ago. The same applies to the oft used label, "Islamophobic". It's not meant as an appeal for dialogue. It's meant to shut people up.

 

[Father Heathen]

No culture should be exempt from critique and scrutiny. Crime, violence, sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. are attitudes and behaviors that are interwoven into a culture. Brushing the social norms that contribute to such problems under the rug for the sake of respect and tolerance (both of which must be mutual to truly work) only serves to reinforce such ills. To become to so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance is foolish.

 

[Yerda]

Apparently you are not familiar with these groups of people and how they operate within the societies they ramble through.

I'm certainly familiar with the bigotry aimed toward them.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm certainly familiar with the bigotry aimed toward them.

Really? How so? Please share your experiences with the Romani people.

 

[Yerda]

I came to that conclusion quite awhile ago. The same applies to the oft used label, "Islamophobic". It's not meant as an appeal for dialogue. It's meant to shut people up.

Are you saying this bigotry doesn't exist or that it is acceptable?

 

[Revoltingest]

No culture should be exempt from critique and scrutiny. Crime, violence, sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. are attitudes and behaviors that are interwoven into a culture. Brushing the social norms that contribute to such problems under the rug for the sake of respect and tolerance (both of which must be mutual to truly work) only serves to reinforce such ills. To become to so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance is foolish.

I've no tolerance for those intolerant of tolerance for intolerance.
People become scared to say anything controversial or face any problem, lest some group take offense.

 

[Kathryn]

Jaiket - please share a story or two about your interactions with Romas or Travelers. Or perhaps some of your research on the topic - done before today, preferably.

 

[Kathryn]

Are you saying this bigotry doesn't exist or that it is acceptable?

How on earth did you reach that conclusion from his post?

 

[Yerda]

Really? How so? Please share your experiences with the Romani people.

Face to face? The odd one has passed the door of my parents' house. Wee old ladies who read fortunes that my mother superstitioulsy believes. As far as I know they never nicked anything. Then again they might be that good.

There are travellers camps that pop up not far from the village sometimes. You know, now that you mention it...I did always wonder where they got those wheelie bins from. The Devils!

I watched a series following travellers in Scotland and Ireland recently. That was good. I mean, they even made them seem like real people. Talent knows no bounds at the BBC.

And you? I'm sure you must have some reason for your hateful comments?

 

[Father Heathen]

Are you saying this bigotry doesn't exist or that it is acceptable?

I believe is he saying that valid observation shouldn't be dishonestly mislabeled as "bigotry".

 

[Father Heathen]

I've not tolerance for those intolerant of tolerance for intolerance.
People become scared to say anything controversial or face any problem, lest some group take offense.

People need to get over their dainty sensitivities and insecurities. Sometimes addressing problems in the world requires stepping on toes.

 

[Yerda]

I believe is he saying that valid observation shouldn't be dishonestly mislabeled as "bigotry".

I see.

 

[kai]

I came to that conclusion quite awhile ago. The same applies to the oft used label, "Islamophobic". It's not meant as an appeal for dialogue. It's meant to shut people up.

I totally agree,

 

[Kathryn]

And you? I'm sure you must have some reason for your hateful comments?

I've already given just a few examples, but to tell more would seem redundant, since my true stories ALWAYS involve the exploitation of children, adults teaching their children (or God knows whose children) specifically HOW to steal, or men intimidating and defrauding elderly people by hoodwinking them into thinking that they 1) actually need home repairs, and then 2) their home has been repaired.

These are first hand observations, by the way. Not urban legends.

 

[kai]

Of course the the word Romany is used very widely and using it to describe " anybody who decides to set up a nomadic lifestyle" is inaccurate. I don't think the Irish travelers we have in the UK are Romany.

there's an" Irish traveler" site near me though and it rightly or wrongly carries a fearsome reputation , everything from flouting planning laws, to a culture of boys brought up to aspire to bare knuckle fighting for money "which i have witnessed " Yes they have a reputation not totally undeserved but sometimes exaggerated, do they integrate? no, are they Romany ? no. They may lift the odd bit of scrap from the area and if things do have a tendency to missing they sure get the blame. But they certainly dont bring their kids up into a kind of criminal,slavery that is being reported all over Europe at the moment and they are not really what we are talking about here.


One of Romania's most powerful criminals has warned his country must do something to stop the wave of Gypsy child crime that is sweeping Europe or face a backlash against Romanians.
Gypsy News


Romanian film maker Liviu Tipurita, who has spent many years investigating child trafficking and exploitation and who has made several films about Romania’s gypsy community, filmed in Spain and in Italy, where Gypsy crime has hit the headlines and where the right-wing government has introduced draconian measures to target the Gypsies. With remarkable access to Gypsy camps, the film charts how child crime has become increasingly common within the community. And covert footage shows just how hard these child thieves work to earn their adult controllers many thousands of pounds.


Gypsy News

 

[Yerda]

I've already given just a few examples, but to tell more would seem redundant, since my true stories ALWAYS involve the exploitation of children, adults teaching their children (or God knows whose children) specifically HOW to steal, or men intimidating and defrauding elderly people by hoodwinking them into thinking that they 1) actually need home repairs, and then 2) their home has been repaired.

These are first hand observations, by the way. Not urban legends.

I believe you. I've read reports of child trafficking and prostitution, muggings, burglaries, and theft.

Look, Kathryn, Stephen cited the events in Italy. When you responded as you did you appeared to be suggesting that the collective punishment of Romani (and other travellers) was reasonable or justified.

And the Roma (and Travellers) in Europe ARE, like it or not, rather horrid people.

Having read through the posts following a couple of times I'm confident that you aren't claiming they should be round up and shot or whatever, but I'm still struggling to see how that wouldn't be interpreted as racism had it been another group.

Is that your point? The characterisation is accurate enough for it to be legitemate to make blanket statements about an entire ethnic group (and travelling culture)?

 

[kai]

but didn't Kathryn make it quite clear her opinion is based on her own personal experiences of their behavior and that there were exceptions to this behavior, It wasn't based on genetics.

I have posted quite a few items where Europeans are voicing concerns about the way children are used in these communities, everyone from the Police to Gangsters all over Europe voicing concerns about the way these children are being brought up. Its a good subject to look into, but all we really ended up with was a discussion on racism.

 

[Father Heathen]

As has already been stated; race and culture are two completely different things. Some cultures have unsavory aspects, and I'm not sure what people are trying to achieve by pretending otherwise. It's simply dishonest to dismiss legitimate social concerns as "racism".

 

[kai]

As has already been stated; race and culture are two completely different things. Some cultures have unsavory aspects, and I'm not sure what people are trying to achieve by pretending otherwise. It's simply dishonest to dismiss legitimate social concerns as "racism".

I agree