Gender Dysphoric Kids

[Kooky]

Could it be that transgenderism is a somewhat new study than other illnesses puberty blockers would be of use?

I feel the focus should be on whether the criteria or symptoms warrant one treatment over another rather than it being generalized that if we used X treatment for this why not for that.

And yet, the primary argument the transgender-exclusionist side is advancing is that puberty blockers are a uniquely dangerous method that shouldn't be used on teenagers. Of course I agree with you that the real argument has never been about that.

The real goal of that debate is, of course, to restrict and suppress transgender people in the expression of their gender. And because this is a sliding goal with no real end point, trans-exclusionists will always see too much "transgenderism" in our society.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The real goal of that debate is, of course, to restrict and suppress transgender people in the expression of their gender. And because this is a sliding goal with no real end point, trans-exclusionists will always see too much "transgenderism" in our society.

Oh. If that's the case, I would not restrict and suppress. The only concern I'd have with this is the age of giving treatment. Suppressing in and of itself, it wouldn't be my place to say no even if I agreed to do so.

The problem I see with those who are against transgender issues is lack of education. It makes sense in a sense not many question their gender growing up if anytime throughout their lives nonetheless separate gender from sex. So, ignorance is a huge issue. Maybe more education (if they are open to accept it).

 

[Kooky]

Oh. If that's the case, I would not restrict and suppress. The only concern I'd have with this is the age of giving treatment. Suppressing in and of itself, it wouldn't be my place to say no even if I agreed to do so.

The problem I see with those who are against transgender issues is lack of education. It makes sense in a sense not many question their gender growing up if anytime throughout their lives nonetheless separate gender from sex. So, ignorance is a huge issue. Maybe more education (if they are open to accept it).

Sadly, that last clause appears to me to be the crucial problem.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I just feel it's a bit more tricky before puberty because of what I mentioned about teens not knowing if they are transgender and their feelings of whether they are non-binary, both gender, non gender, so have you. How young before puberty should children be considered to have treatment?

Presenting as and socializing as your identified sex is a part of the treatment plan. You have to do that for a year just to have surgery. And these kids don't have to be teens. A good many of us know many years even before then.

In my opinion, for medical reasons, I'd wait until the child is old enough for the doctor to determine they have clear-cut symptoms of dysphoria and criteria for treatment. Outside of medical issues such as how someone transgender feels about passing and things of that nature, I couldn't comment. I can see an adult balancing health risks of transitioning and their personal views and emotional involvement, but not children.

"Old enough" is to needlessly force a human through dreadfully unwanted and permanent changes even though this damage could have been easily averted. And children aren't fragile porcelain dolls. Sure, they aren't fully developed, but they can handle and understand more than we typically give them credit for.
Truly, in all areas children do need more control and say-so over their healthcare. Especially those who needlessly die because a parent opted to seek prayers and not medicine. I'd have far less problems as an adult had I been able to, as a child, been able to speak out and get my shins straightened regardless of my parent's objections. Lots of kids needlessly suffer with mental illness because a parent doesn't accept psychology and thinks the child just needs to snap out of it and put it all out the head. And here we have adults, adults who are not very well informed or educated on the subject--who claim kids just don't know any better seeking to deny children access to needed healthcare services and treatments.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Could it be that transgenderism is a somewhat new study than other illnesses puberty blockers would be of use?

Gender dysphoria is the condition.
Transgender describes who a person is.
Transgenderism sounds like some whacky, hokey pseudo-science thing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Presenting as and socializing as your identified sex is a part of the treatment plan. You have to do that for a year just to have surgery. And these kids don't have to be teens. A good many of us know many years even before then.

Is that the only factor (and major of all others?) is how you present yourself as the opposite sex?

Truly, in all areas children do need more control and say-so over their healthcare. Especially those who needlessly die because a parent opted to seek prayers and not medicine. I'd have far less problems as an adult had I been able to, as a child, been able to speak out and get my shins straightened regardless of my parent's objections. Lots of kids needlessly suffer with mental illness because a parent doesn't accept psychology and thinks the child just needs to snap out of it and put it all out the head. And here we have adults, adults who are not very well informed or educated on the subject--who claim kids just don't know any better seeking to deny children access to needed healthcare services and treatments.

It really depends on the child's health and the parent(s) choices as well as the type of illness or distress involved among other factors. Aside from the ignorance parents have and people's biases, medically I would prefer children with any illness or mental health distress (lack of better words) to wait until he or she is of age to receive treatment if the doctor (not just the patient) knows what is best for that child's health (excluding a life or death condition). Identifying as the opposite sex shouldn't (I hope?) be the main factor in providing medical treatment to transgender but a combination of things. Even giving medication for depression is a touch and go and, from my experience, psychiatrist give medication sometimes just by saying one is depressed but not getting any objective standing from a psychologist to say it's so. It's similar to figuring out if one has depression, anxiety, neurological disorder, or external influence.

I'm not saying children doesn't know. I'm saying that the child may be considering he is any number of identities that I've listed. So, it isn't (or at least in my opinion shouldn't) just be that one identifies as the opposite sex but much more deeper-what does that entail? A patient and understanding doctor(s) and hopefully support system would help with that but the age of a child has a lot to do with what the child experiences, how he interprets those experiences, and whether those experiences are accurate enough for "the doctor and parent" to understand what's going on.

I'd suggest this with any illness that's not a life and death and that those specific treatments that affect people differently based on age. Even medications are best taken over a certain age. Phenobarbital (meds for epilepsy) isn't given to children because it's a controlled substance. Regardless how many seizures I've had (using me as an example), doesn't exclude that medication being toxic to my body and making things worse.

The only thing I'm not sure of is how the types of treatments puberty blockers etc and if the treatments are affected differently regarding whether that child is a child, teen, and adult. Surgery, I'd definite not agree with it for children. I actually don't know of mental health conditions that has no physical component or cause that's considered candidate for surgery-in my limited knowledge of things.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Gender dysphoria is the condition.
Transgender describes who a person is.
Transgenderism sounds like some whacky, hokey pseudo-science thing.

I think he's talking about dysphoria. I never really got someone who identifies as transgender. It sounds more like my identifying as an epileptic. If someone is a female by gender, that's who they are.

That's why the terms get mixed around but transgender used as an identity term I would "think" would be defeating the point of being someone not defined by your condition but by who you are by your gender.

I agree with you about the transgenderism. It's just our ignorance.... but can be remedied by education.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is that the only factor (and major of all others?) is how you present yourself as the opposite sex?

It's not the only, but if someone is wanting to transition but not doing it or has no desires to then there won't be any surgeries going on.

Aside from the ignorance parents have and people's biases, medically I would prefer children with any illness or mental health distress (lack of better words) to wait until he or she is of age to receive treatment if the doctor (not just the patient) knows what is best for that child's health (say a life or death condition).

And, once again, that is too late. That is to force them to undergo unwanted changes, they will look like their birth sex, they will not look like their identified sex, and that does make a big difference.

I'd suggest this with any illness that's not a life and death and that those specific treatments that affect people differently based on age.

Gender dysphoria can be a matter of life and death, and we're very typically at a much higher risk of suicide before transitioning. I myself am no different from this normal trend.

The only thing I'm not sure of is how the types of treatments puberty blockers etc or if the treatments are affected differently with a child, teen, and adult.

It is simply too late for puberty blockers once someone is an adult, and even as a teen the damage is done. But puberty blockers are reversible. Puberty is not.

I actually don't know of mental health conditions that has no physical component or cause that's considered candidate for surgery-in my limited knowledge of things.

The physical component is our brains literally look more like the sex we identify as than the sex we are born as.
And psycho/neurosurgery is a thing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It sounds more like my identifying as an epileptic.

It is kind of like that. Or how I identify as an Aspie.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's not the only, but if someone is wanting to transition but not doing it or has no desires to then there won't be any surgeries going on.

As a child?

And, once again, that is too late. That is to force them to undergo unwanted changes, they will look like their birth sex, they will not look like their identified sex, and that does make a big difference.

I'm talking of weighing the benefit and drawbacks and benefits because of age in relation to surgery. I'm not sure if puberty blockers affect children differently than they would if they received it as a teen or adult and whether if it does, do the benefits outweigh the consequences.

Gender dysphoria can be a matter of life and death, and we're very typically at a much higher risk of suicide before transitioning. I myself am no different from this normal trend.

It has to be balanced by the physical health of the person. Surgery is a major thing that I would think would have for a child without some sort of physical cause. I'm not disagreeing with the treatment itself, just the age in which one receives it (if that treatment has different affects because of the age o the child-as the medication example I gave).

It is simply too late for puberty blockers once someone is an adult, and even as a teen the damage is done. But puberty blockers are reversible. Puberty is not.

But that still leaves the doctor to know whether that child is nonbinary, no gender, both genders, transgender, so have you. So, I would hope there'd be enough time to figure that out more distinctively.

I'm not familiar if puberty blockers have a negative affect on children that they would not have when they are older. I do believe there should be some clarity before anything is diagnosed before receiving treatment.

The physical component is our brains literally look more like the sex we identify as than the sex we are born as.
And psycho/neurosurgery is a thing.

Yes. My point is some treatments have different, some worse, affects on children than they would a teen, or even more so an adult.

I'm sure if people were more accepting of transgender and knowledge of gender dysphoria, the issue of treatment would still depend on the age maturity of the child (psychological, neurological, biological) and not solely what he or she experiences because of people's ignorance.

Which makes me wonder. Do doctors check to see if children suffer from dysphoria "also" by medical equipment (can't think of the right word) or tests that show discrepancy in things like chromosomes, etc?

When someone has clinical depression, it shows up in their brain scans and so forth. So, they can specify the exact cause and nature of depression (depending on severity of symptoms) by medical treatments in addition to psychological ones. If one is considering surgery, is that the same with transitioning (to those who do so in full)?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think he's talking about dysphoria. I never really got someone who identifies as transgender. It sounds more like my identifying as an epileptic. If someone is a female by gender, that's who they are.

That's why the terms get mixed around but transgender used as an identity term I would "think" would be defeating the point of being someone not defined by your condition but by who you are by your gender.

I agree with you about the transgenderism. It's just our ignorance.... but can be remedied by education.

To add on to my previous point, outside of here it's rare for me to actually use any sort of identify markers related to any illnesses. It probably wouldn't be as bad for me here in California, but where I was it was commonly regarded as an excuse so it's something I rarely disclose outside of family and close friends.

 

[Kooky]

[...]
I'm talking of weighing the benefit and drawbacks and benefits because of age in relation to surgery. I'm not sure if puberty blockers affect children differently than they would if they received it as a teen or adult and whether if it does, do the benefits outweigh the consequences.
[...]

I'd wager that puberty blockers are not nearly as effective once you're already past puberty, hence the name.

And again, puberty blockers are already in use as treatments for children and teenagers. It seems like any such measure and its effects are therefore monitored by trained medical professionals, who are presumably trusted for their knowledge and ability to weigh such actions.

Why should this trust suddenly go out of the window when the patient is a transgender person?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As a child?

Even as a child. I wanted to play with girl's toys and wear girl's clothing, but being a boy there would be none of that because those are girl's things. Sure, that can be a phase. It's possible. One of my nephews had such a phase, where he would even insist he was a girl. But he outgrew it. As is common for those who are going through a phase. But when it is persistent I see no reason to withhold treatment with puberty blockers. If it still persists then hormone treatment should be initiated. If it still persists, most the surgeries adults go through are unnecessary with genital surgery being the only thing that doesn't look like their identified sex.

I'm talking of weighing the benefit and drawbacks and benefits because of age in relation to surgery. I'm not sure if puberty blockers affect children differently than they would if they received it as a teen or adult and whether if it does, do the benefits outweigh the consequences.

Why would an adult receive puberty blockers? What reason and purpose can this possibly have?
And the benefits and drawbacks are a life of looking like their birth sex or a life of looking like their identified sex. That's a very heavy issue, and by the teen years irreversible changes (like voice and body hair) are already beginning and cannot be reversed.

It has to be balanced by the physical health of the person. Surgery is a major thing that I would think would have for a child without some sort of physical cause. I'm not disagreeing with the treatment itself, just the age in which one receives it (if that treatment has different affects because of the age o the child-as the medication example I gave).

It seems a precaution over stated, as it has previously been discussed this is a lengthy process that involves multiple healthcare providers. Post surgery regrets make up a very small percentage.
Children are able to make better decision making choices than we often give them credit for.

But that still leaves the doctor to know whether that child is nonbinary, no gender, both genders, transgender, so have you. So, I would hope there'd be enough time to figure that out more distinctively.

I'm not familiar if puberty blockers have a negative affect on children that they would not have when they are older. I do believe there should be some clarity before anything is diagnosed before receiving treatment.

Informed consent is a must for any treatment, down to the patient being aware of any possible side effects.
You keep bringing these concerns up, but fail to take in that I have repeatedly stated this is not an overnight process, not even something you can do in a year.

Yes. My point is some treatments have different, some worse, affects on children than they would a teen, or even more so an adult.

I'm sure if people were more accepting of transgender and knowledge of gender dysphoria, the issue of treatment would still depend on the age maturity of the child (psychological, neurological, biological) and not solely what he or she experiences because of people's ignorance.

Which makes me wonder. Do doctors check to see if children suffer from dysphoria "also" by medical equipment (can't think of the right word) or tests that show discrepancy in things like chromosomes, etc?

When someone has clinical depression, it shows up in their brain scans and so forth. So, they can specify the exact cause and nature of depression (depending on severity of symptoms) by medical treatments in addition to psychological ones. If one is considering surgery, is that the same with transitioning (to those who do so in full)?

That I am aware of the only firm evidence is after death and the brain can be autopsied, and it has been found that even without hormone treatment those with gender dysphoria have a brain that more closely resembles the sex of their identify than that of their birth. Imaging may have improved since last I checked, I want to say maybe, but nothing I can recall with such certainty.
Other than that it is more of a behavioral and emotional thing. A mismatch we see in the mirror that no one else does. It's having voices we hate hearing, and names we hate having. And I do suspect other things going on that we are not yet aware of, as a since of calmness and improved mood is something I've commonly heard reported once hormone treatment begins.

 

[SomeRandom]

As a child?



I'm talking of weighing the benefit and drawbacks and benefits because of age in relation to surgery. I'm not sure if puberty blockers affect children differently than they would if they received it as a teen or adult and whether if it does, do the benefits outweigh the consequences.



It has to be balanced by the physical health of the person. Surgery is a major thing that I would think would have for a child without some sort of physical cause. I'm not disagreeing with the treatment itself, just the age in which one receives it (if that treatment has different affects because of the age o the child-as the medication example I gave).



But that still leaves the doctor to know whether that child is nonbinary, no gender, both genders, transgender, so have you. So, I would hope there'd be enough time to figure that out more distinctively.

I'm not familiar if puberty blockers have a negative affect on children that they would not have when they are older. I do believe there should be some clarity before anything is diagnosed before receiving treatment.



Yes. My point is some treatments have different, some worse, affects on children than they would a teen, or even more so an adult.

I'm sure if people were more accepting of transgender and knowledge of gender dysphoria, the issue of treatment would still depend on the age maturity of the child (psychological, neurological, biological) and not solely what he or she experiences because of people's ignorance.

Which makes me wonder. Do doctors check to see if children suffer from dysphoria "also" by medical equipment (can't think of the right word) or tests that show discrepancy in things like chromosomes, etc?

When someone has clinical depression, it shows up in their brain scans and so forth. So, they can specify the exact cause and nature of depression (depending on severity of symptoms) by medical treatments in addition to psychological ones. If one is considering surgery, is that the same with transitioning (to those who do so in full)?

Are you seriously wondering whether or not a doctor.....does their job?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'd wager that puberty blockers are not nearly as effective once you're already past puberty, hence the name.

And again, puberty blockers are already in use as treatments for children and teenagers. It seems like any such measure and its effects are therefore monitored by trained medical professionals, who are presumably trusted for their knowledge and ability to weigh such actions.

Why should this trust suddenly go out of the window when the patient is a transgender person?

Not sure. I still wonder how a child has enough clarity before puberty when it comes to the different gender identities I've learned about in the past couple years. When the doctor judges whether puberty blockers are appropriate, does he go off of whether the child is nonbinary, transgender, no gender, and so forth? Since diagnosis and treatment is more than "I'm not in the body I was born in," I would assume there are other factors involved besides the pain one experiences because of other people's ignorance and hate.

For example, I didn't receive treatment for seizures because of other people's ignorance of seizures and I didn't solely for the symptoms I had, but for the actual cause (finding out it's neurological and not pseudo seizures or caused by something else) and then went ahead to treatment based on the cause (is it the left side of the brain or right) rather than just the symptoms. I know each illness is different, but I would assume that diagnosis, treatment, and surgery for transgender (and any diagnosis, treatment, and surgery for any condition) would fall under the same reasoning?

Edit... which, in other cases, age would be a factor in treatment as with other things related.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Are you seriously wondering whether or not a doctor.....does their job?

No. I'm wondering in the case of those transgender, how does the doctor (what factors) does he consider surgery and treatment that is more than based on how one identifies apart from their sex.

I'm not familiar with treatments relating to transgender but I do know that treatments in general can be age determinant. Surgery is a huge procedure to take in consideration. Puberty blockers, I'm not sure if the risks outweigh the benefits but my point still stands treatment is age dependent among other factors and that's why I am a bit curious of how the doctor goes about knowing whether, say, a child is non-binary, no gender, transgender, so have you without some level of clarity of that child to tell the doctor more of what he would ideally look for in a proper diagnosis.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not sure. I still wonder how a child has enough clarity before puberty when it comes to the different gender identities I've learned about in the past couple years. When the doctor judges whether puberty blockers are appropriate, does he go off of whether the child is nonbinary, transgender, no gender, and so forth?

From what I have seen on the notes with my own treatment, it typically will say gender dysphoria, as that is the diagnosis, which means that is what insurance needs to have in order for it to cover treatment*.
*that may not be the actual billing code, however. In Indiana my doctor said I had hypogonadism in order to get insurance to cover hormones.

Since diagnosis and treatment is more than "I'm not in the body I was born in," I would assume there are other factors involved besides the pain one experiences because of other people's ignorance and hate.

As I said, you generally kind of expect them to do and present in ways more typical for the opposite sex. If they aren't there is really no reason to pursue treatment.
To use myself again, therapist generally see I have long hair, pierced ears, I often have my nails painted and sometimes a bit of eye liner. They've interviewed me about childhood and growing up, and how it has effected my adult life. One therapist has even mildly probed into my sex life, making sure there isn't a fetish of some sort going on.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No. I'm wondering in the case of those transgender, how does the doctor (what factors) does he consider surgery and treatment that is more than based on how one identifies apart from their sex.

Generally for hormones you need a therapist who specializes in gender dysphoria who you need to see for at least a few sessions to get a letter of recommendation that you take to (typically) an endocrinologist.
For surgery you have to have lived full time as your identified sex for no less than one year. You also must have two letters of recommendation from two separate therapists who specialize in gender dysphoria. And from their, from what I have heard many surgeons who do bottom surgery will still have their own therapist interview a patient. It's a lot of work, it does get criticism, but it does help deter and detect those who for whatever reason aren't ideal candidates for surgery, and it does help keep post-surgery regrets low.

 

[SomeRandom]

No. I'm wondering in the case of those transgender, how does the doctor (what factors) does he consider surgery and treatment that is more than based on how one identifies apart from their sex.

I'm not familiar with treatments relating to transgender but I do know that treatments in general can be age determinant. Surgery is a huge procedure to take in consideration. Puberty blockers, I'm not sure if the risks outweigh the benefits but my point still stands treatment is age dependent among other factors and that's why I am a bit curious of how the doctor goes about knowing whether, say, a child is non-binary, no gender, transgender, so have you without some level of clarity of that child to tell the doctor more of what he would ideally look for in a proper diagnosis.

I’m pretty sure a medical expert in their relevant field knows how to diagnose and treat something like gender dysphoria. Regardless of age. It’s not like they just give kids sex altering surgery. This is sort of like saying, well how does a therapist know when a teen is depressed rather than just being hormonal. I think a medical expert is more than capable of figuring that out. Even if we don’t know the ins and outs specifically.
Indeed puberty blockers are already deemed safe for use and have been for decades. One long term study compared the two (people on PB on those without) and found no significant difference.
And it’s not like we can measure this on medical equipment these days anyway.
There is probably more concern with gender non conforming teens on PB but even then.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Even as a child. I wanted to play with girl's toys and wear girl's clothing, but being a boy there would be none of that because those are girl's things. Sure, that can be a phase. It's possible. One of my nephews had such a phase, where he would even insist he was a girl. But he outgrew it. As is common for those who are going through a phase. But when it is persistent I see no reason to withhold treatment with puberty blockers. If it still persists then hormone treatment should be initiated. If it still persists, most the surgeries adults go through are unnecessary with genital surgery being the only thing that doesn't look like their identified sex.

Not to single you out specifically, but I assume that cultural norms of who plays with whose toys wouldn't be a factor of diagnosis, treatment, and surgery, no?

I understand the phase part. I always felt when I was younger I had something down there and acted like it. Later on in my adult years my aunt asked me if I were a girl, and I told her I didn't know (weirdly enough, that was just 11 years ago). A couple of other experiences. However, unlike most people with it, I grew out of it (well, not really noticeable anymore). Though, if it were full-blown, then like any condition, of course I would remedy it. My overall point, though, was more about age maturity, brain, neurological, and psychological. As for what Kooky said about children getting this treatment for other conditions, then I'd shift my focus more on the factors doctors consider when determining if a child would have puberty blockers and surgery since the same treatment can be used for different illnesses. My other question was does the doctor do tests that test say chromone discrepancy (if that be the case) to determine the nature of the symptoms and said experiences? Normally before diagnosis there are a good amount of tests but then in mental health psychiatrist give you meds for talking about the symptoms but not always because there is some sort of physical connection involved.

Why would an adult receive puberty blockers? What reason and purpose can this possibly have?

And the benefits and drawbacks are a life of looking like their birth sex or a life of looking like their identified sex. That's a very heavy issue, and by the teen years irreversible changes (like voice and body hair) are already beginning and cannot be reversed.

Yeah. It is a heavy issue. I do hope children have some clarity, though specially if doctors don't have other ways to find out if one is suffering from dysphoria in addition to their symptoms and external pressures. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just a bit skeptical because children and teens seem to identify with so many gender identities that it doesn't seem to crystalize till later (generalizing).

It seems a precaution over stated, as it has previously been discussed this is a lengthy process that involves multiple healthcare providers. Post surgery regrets make up a very small percentage.

Children are able to make better decision making choices than we often give them credit for.

But how does that account for the gender identities and overlapping symptoms that doctors need to take into consideration before offering any medical treatments?

Informed consent is a must for any treatment, down to the patient being aware of any possible side effects.

You keep bringing these concerns up, but fail to take in that I have repeatedly stated this is not an overnight process, not even something you can do in a year.

But a child can't do that in the States unless they are of age or have parental consent.

I didn't say they needed to rush the decision. Just my opinions and learning something new.

That I am aware of the only firm evidence is after death and the brain can be autopsied, and it has been found that even without hormone treatment those with gender dysphoria have a brain that more closely resembles the sex of their identify than that of their birth. Imaging may have improved since last I checked, I want to say maybe, but nothing I can recall with such certainty.
Other than that it is more of a behavioral and emotional thing. A mismatch we see in the mirror that no one else does. It's having voices we hate hearing, and names we hate having. And I do suspect other things going on that we are not yet aware of, as a since of calmness and improved mood is something I've commonly heard reported once hormone treatment begins

That's why I think it's a bit tricky. I mean years ago, people didn't really know the cause of depression and didn't take ADHD and autism seriously, just a "learning disability." I just think there would ideally be more clarity involved unless, like a life and death situation, someone doesn't have the capability to make sound decisions because of the nature of their illness and/or progression thereof.