Gender Dysphoric Kids

[Brian2]

I am not sure, that there are only 2 genders and that they always match the 2 sexes.

It is interesting that while denying that there are just 2 genders, those who promote the transition therapies are trying to make people fully either one sex or the other,,,,,,,,,,,which would mean fully one gender of the other.

 

[Brian2]

No ****, Sherlock?
Ever think it's better than what we have? I used to hate looking at myself in the mirror. Now it's not so bad. I cringed being referred to as a male and withdrew and dettached from it. Being called miss is something I feel attached to. It's been so good that even starting on estrogen made me feel way better. People accepting me as female though, it's not always great, but I'm starting to feel like I can live my life.
Or it's kind of like my contact lenses. My eyes are not perfect. I am near sighted. This can never change. But a medical device adjusts how I see, making the world clear for me to see.

But to have these things foisted on people too young to know what they really want sounds off to me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It is interesting that while denying that there are just 2 genders, those who promote the transition therapies are trying to make people fully either one sex or the other,,,,,,,,,,,which would mean fully one gender of the other.

Well, LGBT+ does include non-binary stances, so to me you are any gender, no gender or what ever you are as you.
Relevant for some humans, that are trans, it involves some sense of binary, but that it is it.

For examples I feel as the gender male, but what that means is not the same as I have a XY chromosomes. Nor does it mean that my gender is fully biological, because some of it is culture. And in effect I do have some non-male traits according to some versions of what it means to be a male.

 

[Brian2]

Well, LGBT+ does include non-binary stances, so to me you are any gender, no gender or what ever you are as you.
Relevant for some humans, that are trans, it involves some sense of binary, but that it is it.

For examples I feel as the gender male, but what that means is not the same as I have a XY chromosomes. Nor does it mean that my gender is fully biological, because some of it is culture. And in effect I do have some non-male traits according to some versions of what it means to be a male.

Of course we aren't all the full stereotype male or female and some of it is cultural.
I think we now have laws here whereby you can change your sexual identification on forms etc as much as you like even if you have not had any medical intervention.
The world is changing very fast these days.
Interesting to watch, but it can be hard to keep up with.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Of course we aren't all the full stereotype male or female and some of it is cultural.
I think we now have laws here whereby you can change your sexual identification on forms etc as much as you like.

Okay, look at it this way.
It is several factors:

1. We come for a fairly strict place of binary choices and that sex and gender are the same. When we let go, that can lead to overcorrection.
2. We have the Internet and thus change can spread faster.
3. We have other medical options than in the past.

So what about the children? Well, that is not that easy, because as far as I can tell sex, gender and all that is not that simple. So if we conform to old standards, we end up harming some people. But if we let it total loose, we might also end up harming some people.
Thought I think the second one, is sometimes used by traditionalist to say, than we shouldn't open up, because it will go wrong. The problem is that to me it is in some limited sense a case of damned if we do and damned if we don't.

So here is my opinion. We should open up and let parents and children learn to do it.
So no, we shouldn't shelter the children, but be smart about it.

 

[Yerda]

That would be trying to alter the bodies of young people from their natural course to the course of being as much as possible, physically, a different gender.

Ok. So you mean puberty blockers then, yes?

Sounds good but where I live in Victoria Australia, the Government has brought in laws that tend to make it abuse for a parent to go against the wishes of their child for sexual transition therapy.

Out of curiosity do you know which laws?

Does this mean that we shouldn't begin from the position that trans people should be treated with dignity and that medical treatment should be aimed at giving them the best opportunity of a fulfilling life?

 

[Brian2]

Okay, look at it this way.
It is several factors:

1. We come for a fairly strict place of binary choices and that sex and gender are the same. When we let go, that can lead to overcorrection.
2. We have the Internet and thus change can spread faster.
3. We have other medical options than in the past.

So what about the children? Well, that is not that easy, because as far as I can tell sex, gender and all that is not that simple. So if we conform to old standards, we end up harming some people. But if we let it total loose, we might also end up harming some people.
Thought I think the second one, is sometimes used by traditionalist to say, than we shouldn't open up, because it will go wrong. The problem is that to me it is in some limited sense a case of damned if we do and damned if we don't.

So here is my opinion. We should open up and let parents and children learn to do it.
So no, we shouldn't shelter the children, but be smart about it.

It's a tough one for legislation for some people. Times of change bring those things that the traditionalists are completely opposed to even though they seem to bring good for some. No matter which way we go there is potential harm. Of course attitude change in this fast changing world can overcome some potential harm of the old world attitudes to gays.
Being smart about it seems to me to mean making changes slower than they are happening these days.
Where I live a law has just been passed which is against conversion therapy,,,,,,,,,praying for or counselling people against gender transition is illegal and it is considered abuse for a parent to say no to a child who wants the transition. Counselling in the other direction is OK though. (I think I have the basic facts right even if the intent of the legislation was no doubt not to go as far as they have and to just stop real abuse) We have a very "progressive" Government it seems, and a stubborn leader. Euthanasia and abortion at the end of pregnancy are also on the cards.
Interesting times.
What we have on the other side of politics is people who almost deny climate change and see money and the economy as more important than the environment.
And both sides are against real assistance to refugees and prefer to see them rot for years in refugee centres instead of giving any hint of a message to refugee smugglers that we are going easy on refugees.

 

[Brian2]

Ok. So you mean puberty blockers then, yes?

Yes, but I have heard that the effects are reversible easily enough. However I have heard that puberty blockers may stop someone going through psychological growth and physical development and into the maturity needed to know what they really want, because it takes may keep those kids in a certain developmental stage.

Out of curiosity do you know which laws?

It is the Conversion therapy ban in Victoria Australia. It does not sound as if it reaches to gender transition but it seems that it can see parental disapproval of transition as abuse and take decisions about their children out of their hands when it comes to such things.

Does this mean that we shouldn't begin from the position that trans people should be treated with dignity and that medical treatment should be aimed at giving them the best opportunity of a fulfilling life?

That sounds like a good place to start.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's a tough one for legislation for some people. Times of change bring those things that the traditionalists are completely opposed to even though they seem to bring good for some. No matter which way we go there is potential harm. Of course attitude change in this fast changing world can overcome some potential harm of the old world attitudes to gays.
Being smart about it seems to me to mean making changes slower than they are happening these days.
Where I live a law has just been passed which is against conversion therapy,,,,,,,,,praying for or counselling people against gender transition is illegal and it is considered abuse for a parent to say no to a child who wants the transition. Counselling in the other direction is OK though. (I think I have the basic facts right even if the intent of the legislation was no doubt not to go as far as they have and to just stop real abuse) We have a very "progressive" Government it seems, and a stubborn leader. ...

I will only do the relevant part as for LGBT+ as not being one.
Here is how I know it personally. I am not normal for some of my cognition and emotions. I.e. I have 3 psychiatric diagnoses. (Note - I am not really insane. That is just a word, I am cognitively and emotionally diverse).I have felt that myself since around 10/11 years old. I am now 55 years old and for most of my life, society in one form or another have tried to make me "normal". I can't. I have tried and it has caused me nothing but discomfort and harm.
Now you could say, that in a limited sense I am not "sane", but that has its limits. How? I am still a human, I just don't live up to "normal" in some sense.
So here is how I view, what you wrote about. It can result in massive discomfort and harm to try to force people to be something they are not.

So while I get what you are saying, I am unsure, if you understand what it means to be a human, that doesn't conform to being "normal". BTW being "normal" is in some case not a fact, but a social construct and that can harm people.
So do yourself a favor in trying to get it. For the next week remind yourself that normal is not what you are. Rather pick a position that is not you to the core of your being and force yourself to act as if that is you. You can't and you really shouldn't try to do it, because it can be dangerous. But that is the life of some of us as humans.

So here it is for me as best as I can do it. I am not "normal"(what ever that is) and I am am proud of it, because I have leaned to be me.
So no, I get you. But what you indirectly suggest in some sense, is more dangerous, than what is being done by the government, where you live. I say that knowing there are finer points we can debate, but not the core.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...
It is the Conversion therapy ban in Victoria Australia. It does not sound as if it reaches to gender transition but it seems that it can see parental disapproval of transition as abuse and take decisions about their children out of their hands when it comes to such things.
...

Good law.

 

[Brian2]

I will only do the relevant part as for LGBT+ as not being one.
Here is how I know it personally. I am not normal for some of my cognition and emotions. I.e. I have 3 psychiatric diagnoses. (Note - I am not really insane. That is just a word, I am cognitively and emotionally diverse).I have felt that myself since around 10/11 years old. I am now 55 years old and for most of my life, society in one form or another have tried to make me "normal". I can't. I have tried and it has caused me nothing but discomfort and harm.
Now you could say, that in a limited sense I am not "sane", but that has its limits. How? I am still a human, I just don't live up to "normal" in some sense.
So here is how I view, what you wrote about. It can result in massive discomfort and harm to try to force people to be something they are not.

So while I get what you are saying, I am unsure, if you understand what it means to be a human, that doesn't conform to being "normal". BTW being "normal" is in some case not a fact, but a social construct and that can harm people.
So do yourself a favor in trying to get it. For the next week remind yourself that normal is not what you are. Rather pick a position that is not you to the core of your being and force yourself to act as if that is you. You can't and you really shouldn't try to do it, because it can be dangerous. But that is the life of some of us as humans.

So here it is for me as best as I can do it. I am not "normal"(what ever that is) and I am am proud of it, because I have leaned to be me.
So no, I get you. But what you indirectly suggest in some sense, is more dangerous, than what is being done by the government, where you live. I say that knowing there are finer points we can debate, but not the core.

I already know something about not being normal,,,,,,,,,,,,,,as we all do to some extent of course.
Interestingly wanting to change ourselves to be normal is ,,,,,,,,,,normal,,,,,,,,,but it is also giving in to societal pressure to be normal. But I suppose we can't all be fighters for the cause of changing society and it's attitudes, to the detriment of our own lives, especially when all we really want is to feel good and fit in.
Anyway it has been an interesting discussion and I think I have learnt something.
Just to say, I disagree with any hard core conversion therapy but I also disagree with iron fist clamp down on anything that parents or counsellors may say which is opposition to what a teenager may feel they are at a certain stage of their life. It is affirmation or nothing for our Premier. The pendulum has swung too far the other way in some places.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But to have these things foisted on people too young to know what they really want sounds off to me.

I've known since I was very young. Being able to transition young, again this would have made a HUGE positive impact in my life.
People, it seems, just do not want to listen and accept what ws say when we say we've knowm amd wanted this since we were children.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I already know something about not being normal,,,,,,,,,,,,,,as we all do to some extent of course.
Interestingly wanting to change ourselves to be normal is ,,,,,,,,,,normal,,,,,,,,,but it is also giving in to societal pressure to be normal. But I suppose we can't all be fighters for the cause of changing society and it's attitudes, to the detriment of our own lives, especially when all we really want is to feel good and fit in.
Anyway it has been an interesting discussion and I think I have learnt something.
Just to say, I disagree with any hard core conversion therapy but I also disagree with iron fist clamp down on anything that parents or counsellors may say which is opposition to what a teenager may feel they are at a certain stage of their life. It is affirmation or nothing for our Premier. The pendulum has swung too far the other way in some places.

Can you find the actual law? And the recommendations behind it? Sometimes what filters through in the media don't match how a law is done in practice.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Anyway it has been an interesting discussion and I think I have learnt something.
Just to say, I disagree with any hard core conversion therapy but I also disagree with iron fist clamp down on anything that parents or counsellors may say which is opposition to what a teenager may feel they are at a certain stage of their life. It is affirmation or nothing for our Premier. The pendulum has swung too far the other way in some places.

In regards to my bowed shins, when I was a child (second or third grade) I greatly wish someone would have been able to step in and say the doctor says they need straightened, I wanted it done, my parents told to bugger off that I will have the surgery. But that didn't happen, my parents got their way, amd my life has been a series of knee injuries (to ligaments and cartilage) and surgeries.

 

[Brian2]

I've known since I was very young. Being able to transition young, again this would have made a HUGE positive impact in my life.
People, it seems, just do not want to listen and accept what ws say when we say we've knowm amd wanted this since we were children.

Yes I guess the possible benefits have to be weighed against the possible negative effects.
I'm sure those who decide will approve earlier those who have known since they were young.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes I guess the possible benefits have to be weighed against the possible negative effects.
I'm sure those who decide will approve earlier those who have known since they were young.

The joke is in the word weighed and what you consider positive and negative. But that is so for us all.

 

[Brian2]

Can you find the actual law? And the recommendations behind it? Sometimes what filters through in the media don't match how a law is done in practice.

Here is a link to a Victorian Gov web site with links to the Bill and other things.
It does not look as bad there as painted by the conservative Christian group I have been listening to. But we will see what it entails as time goes by.
Change or Suppression Practices - Legislative Ban

 

[Brian2]

The joke is in the word weighed and what you consider positive and negative. But that is so for us all.

Yes other people will see things differently to how I see them for sure. That's fine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and I am probably wrong. It would be nice to be right all the time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,instead of just thinking I am.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes other people will see things differently to how I see them for sure. That's fine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and I am probably wrong. It would be nice to be right all the time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,instead of just thinking I am.

Forget being right or wrong for a moment. Can you hold in a non-literal concrete manner the idea that you and I can be different in some limited sense for which it means that we do differently without means that we in effect "harm" each other.

That is the trick, but that is psychology/morality/ethics and not true/right or false/wrong.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[Brian2]

In regards to my bowed shins, when I was a child (second or third grade) I greatly wish someone would have been able to step in and say the doctor says they need straightened, I wanted it done, my parents told to bugger off that I will have the surgery. But that didn't happen, my parents got their way, amd my life has been a series of knee injuries (to ligaments and cartilage) and surgeries.

Yes parents make the wrong decisions many times.
I guess transition surgery is a bit different in that a young person may change their mind.
I have a grandchild who has a bad overbite and the cure is to break her jaw so it sets larger than it is. I can understand her parents not wanting that.
The whole thing is in a changing attitudes area.
There is also the question of how far a Government can go when it comes to over riding the wishes of the parents.