Gender Dysphoric Kids

[mikkel_the_dane]

Here is a link to a Victorian Gov web site with links to the Bill and other things.
It does not look as bad there as painted by the conservative Christian group I have been listening to. But we will see what it entails as time goes by.
Change or Suppression Practices - Legislative Ban

Yeah, the claim of higher suicide rate in response is backup by real life examples. There is even more than just that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes parents make the wrong decisions many times.
I guess transition surgery is a bit different in that a young person may change their mind.
I have a grandchild who has a bad overbite and the cure is to break her jaw so it sets larger than it is. I can understand her parents not wanting that.
The whole thing is in a changing attitudes area.
There is also the question of how far a Government can go when it comes to over riding the wishes of the parents.

Who in the end is in practice responsible for those who can't take care of themselves?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The whole thing is in a changing attitudes area.

This is why transitioning, for children and adults, is medically guided by multiple doctors and providers along the way. There are standards that must be met. No one can just wake and decide to transition and make it happen. There are treatment protocols and standards, and they do help keep regrets low.

I'm sure those who decide will approve earlier those who have known since they were young.

I can only hope. It's a miserable childhood and teen years struggling with such a thing, amd while the fixes aren't full everything, but even just the shifts in attitudes of not caring if boys and girls play with each other's toys is better than a mindset that keeps them rigidly segregated, and I imagine probably best for all children in general as it avoids needless confusion and embarrassment over the world getting worked up over something that doesn't matter. Kids are curious. But they figure out male/female things on their, without strict guidance and intervention. And the ones that don't fit the binaries? Oh well. They don't harm anyone, and sometimes that is a medical condition. And this is also how we start to be able to identify the ones who need medical intervention, by a persistent pulling towards things of the opposite and desires to be the opposite sex. Of course can't go full throttle ahead from based on that, and we don't. Sometimes it is a phase, but phases are outgrown. Continuing to socialize as the opposite sex isn't.

 

[InChrist]

Well, the subjective is connected to the objective.
So if you feel something that is subjective, but caused be your brain, which is a part of the objective. But if I feel differently, it is also connected to a brain, just mine.
So if there are gender differences it means there are different objective brains.

Would you mind explaining that again what you saying. I am having a little difficulty understanding what you mean. Thanks.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Would you mind explaining what again what you saying. I am having a little difficulty understanding what you mean. Thanks.

Now I am not saying that the world is natural or supernatural in the end. I don't know what the world is as independent of the mind. Rather based on experience I know that when I drink alcohol my feelings change. So something which is subjective, my feelings change, based on something which is objective; i.e. the effect of alcohol in regards to cognition and feelings.

 

[InChrist]

It is not that simple.

I don’t mean to imply it’s simple or easy, but I think it is true.

 

[InChrist]

Now I am not saying that the world is natural or supernatural in the end. I don't know what the world is as independent of the mind. Rather based on experience I know that when I drink alcohol my feelings change. So something which is subjective, my feelings change, based on something which is objective; i.e. the effect of alcohol in regards to cognition and feelings.

Okay, that’s a little more clear. Thank you. So how do you see that concept applying to a child or adult who feels they are different than the biological sex they were born with ?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Okay, that’s a little more clear. Thank you. So how do you see that concept applying to a child or adult who feels they are different than the biological sex they were born with ?

One step at a time. That I am XY, i.e. a male, doesn't mean that I am automatically heterosexual. I.e. you can't look at my genes as XY and only based on say that what sexual orientation I have or if I am asexual. So here is more to it, than just look at a persons objective characteristics.
So where does it happen that I am heterosexual? Do I have a free will choice in that?

 

[InChrist]

One step at a time. That I am XY, i.e. a male, doesn't mean that I am automatically heterosexual. I.e. you can't look at my genes as XY and only based on say that what sexual orientation I have or if I am asexual. So here is more to it, than just look at a persons objective characteristics.
So where does it happen that I am heterosexual? Do I have a free will choice in that?

I appreciate your thoughts and questions. I will try to get back to you on the subject, but would like to think about what you have said awhile. I’m really tired now, though and tomorrow will be busy all day.
Have a good night and hopefully we can continue the conversation later on.

 

[InChrist]

One step at a time. That I am XY, i.e. a male, doesn't mean that I am automatically heterosexual. I.e. you can't look at my genes as XY and only based on say that what sexual orientation I have or if I am asexual. So here is more to it, than just look at a persons objective characteristics.
So where does it happen that I am heterosexual? Do I have a free will choice in that?

I think I somewhat understand what you are saying. You were born physically and biologically male, with XY chromosomes, but that objective physical reality doesn’t mean your feelings are heterosexual because there is more involved than the objective biological aspect. If I am misunderstanding your words or thoughts you may correct me.

Overall, I would say I do agree with you because I believe a person is more than just their physical being and that sexual attraction is a complex issue in which biological, social, and psychological factors combine to play a role in the ultimate sexual orientation of an individual. Nevertheless, I do believe every person does ultimately have a free will choice, not only concerning sexuality, but in all areas of personal desires and behaviors and that choice is made in one’s mind and thoughts.

I was also thinking about your example of drinking alcohol and the way it can change feelings, which is true. But while alcohol may cause one to see or feel something differently, it actually doesn’t change reality or the truth. For example, someone who is too drunk may feel like they can drive a car or safely walk across a busy street, but the reality may well be that they cannot because those feelings are inaccurate and they sadly pay the consequences by being killed, injured or harm others.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Kooky]

For what it's worth, the hormonal treatments and blockers that the usual suspects seem to be such in arms about appears to have been used on non-transgender teen patients for decades at this point. Presumably, it was perfectly okay to apply these as elements in a wide variety of medical treatments outside of gender transition, so the question arises what makes gender transition so uniquely dangerous as a motivation. Does anybody care to answer that?

Puberty blocker - Wikipedia

 

[SomeRandom]

For what it's worth, the hormonal treatments and blockers that the usual suspects seem to be such in arms about appears to have been used on non-transgender teen patients for decades at this point. Presumably, it was perfectly okay to apply these as elements in a wide variety of medical treatments outside of gender transition, so the question arises what makes gender transition so uniquely dangerous as a motivation. Does anybody care to answer that?

Puberty blocker - Wikipedia

Thank you! I find it really telling that some people wilfully deny legitimately scientifically approved treatments the exact moment it comes into conflict with their black and white notions of sex or sexuality or gender or whatever.
Sex isn’t even considered binary in our species, the characteristics are distributed through bimodal means. So even the claim that one is necessarily fully male from a biological standpoint is at best questionable. Some men have two XX chromosomes, without any transition whatsoever. Same with some females having a Y chromosome. That’s not even taking into account the myriad of potential hermaphroditic conditions present in our species. So if we want to talk biology, not even biology considers the sexes fully black and white and hasn’t done for a long time.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Poor kids that are being targeted for unscientific, experimental therapies and surgeries (for financial profit) that can create long term damage to their health and lives.


“It is not transphobic or discriminatory to discuss this—we as a society need to fully understand what we are encouraging our children to do to their bodies.”

We need balance when it comes to gender dysphoric kids. I would know | Opinion


What are your thoughts?

It took awhile for mental health therapy to be recognized as legit and things like ADD and autism just as so. Yet, we do see successes in treatment as they are perfected for what we know so far.

I'd say treatments and surgeries, just as most other cases, should be decided at the age of reason but as for the validity of the treatments itself and the many people who have benefit from it, I see the study and advancement worth the shot.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Kids who feel that they are in the wrong gender body should be allowed to take blockers which stops them from the physical gender transformation they desperately don't want. When they are adult they can then decide about any definite transformation into whatever gender form they wish.

There's a problem with this, though. When I talked with teens they have many feelings from non gender, both genders, identifying with the opposite gender, and don't know if they have problems with their gender or is it their sexual orientation. When I found out I was lesbian, I knew since I was young but I didn't put a word to it until I was near high school. However, I did have a gender-issue for I don't know how long but it wasn't full blown dysphoria. I identify as a female by sex and gender now as an adult.

So, based on my personal experiences and just talking with LGBTQ teens, it makes more sense to wait until maybe after puberty when things are more distinct and they have people to talk to that are willing to and/or do understand what LGBTQ kids go through. There are medical treatments for many child illnesses (generalizing) that treatments would be beneficial to their health after a certain age.

 

[SomeRandom]

There's a problem with this, though. When I talked with teens they have many feelings from non gender, both genders, identifying with the opposite gender, and don't know if they have problems with their gender or is it their sexual orientation. When I found out I was lesbian, I knew since I was young but I didn't put a word to it until I was near high school. However, I did have a gender-issue for I don't know how long but it wasn't full blown dysphoria. I identify as a female by sex and gender now as an adult.

So, based on my personal experiences and just talking with LGBTQ teens, it makes more sense to wait until maybe after puberty when things are more distinct and they have people to talk to that are willing to and/or do understand what LGBTQ kids go through. There are medical treatments for many child illnesses (generalizing) that treatments would be beneficial to their health after a certain age.

Yeah but if you wait until after puberty, then the surgery is a lot more invasive and time consuming. Whereas with puberty blockers you can just stop taking them and viola. No long term detriments as far as I’m aware. No surgeries required. And if it is required I’d imagine the surgery necessary would be a whole lot easier.
Puberty blockers are being treated as if they were literally surgeries, these life altering permanent “solutions.” But they’re not. Surgery at that age would be the more extreme and permanent option, I would think. Blockers are supposed to be the compromise.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There's a problem with this, though. When I talked with teens they have many feelings from non gender, both genders, identifying with the opposite gender, and don't know if they have problems with their gender or is it their sexual orientation. When I found out I was lesbian, I knew since I was young but I didn't put a word to it until I was near high school. However, I did have a gender-issue for I don't know how long but it wasn't full blown dysphoria. I identify as a female by sex and gender now as an adult.

So, based on my personal experiences and just talking with LGBTQ teens, it makes more sense to wait until maybe after puberty when things are more distinct and they have people to talk to that are willing to and/or do understand what LGBTQ kids go through. There are medical treatments for many child illnesses (generalizing) that treatments would be beneficial to their health after a certain age.

After puberty their body will look like their birth sex. There is no reversing that. Wide hips can't be narrowed, just as broad shoulders can't be shrunk. And after puberty, hips can't be widened and shoulders can't be enlarged once the bones are fully calcified.

Puberty blockers are being treated as if they were literally surgeries, these life altering permanent “solutions.” But they’re not. Surgery at that age would be the more extreme and permanent option, I would think. Blockers are supposed to be the compromise.

Not only that, I don't think people realize how guided a transition has to be. It's not even like going to the doctor with torn ligament in the knee to be sent to have an MRI done and sent to a specialist for surgery. For starters, surgery takes two letters from licensed therapist who specialize in gender dysphoria. There has to be a doctor administering hormones. There has to be surgeons. And your primary care physician pretty much also has to be involved by default. It's way more thoroughly screened for than something like bariatric surgery.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

After puberty their body will look like their birth sex. There is no reversing that. Wide hips can't be narrowed, just as broad shoulders can't be shrunk. And after puberty, hips can't be widened and shoulders can't be enlarged once the bones are fully calcified.

I'm sure not all who are transgender received treatment before puberty. Many look like the gender they identify with, and some full-blown transition to where you couldn't tell because (they tell me) they haven't yet passed.

How would doctors know that one is transgender beyond a child saying their body isn't congruent with their gender? Wouldn't doctors need a good amount of time to assess whether the child has dysphoria by seeing how long he or she had this feeling among other factors ideally needed to have any diagnosis to have treatment?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm sure not all who are transgender received treatment before puberty. Many look like the gender they identify with, and some full-blown transition to where you couldn't tell because (they tell me) they haven't yet passed.

How would doctors know that one is transgender beyond a child saying their body isn't congruent with their gender? Wouldn't doctors need a good amount of time to assess whether the child has dysphoria by seeing how long he or she had this feeling among other factors ideally needed to have any diagnosis to have treatment?

Yes. For the hundredth time (and literally just above your post) you can't just go to a doctor and say you want a sex change. Child or adult, it doesn't work like that. After everything else, you still have to live full time as your identified sex before you can have gential surgery. Acting before puberty, this reduces the need for other surgeries like facial feminization surgery, and their bodies will look far more like their identified sex than their birth sex.
After puberty there is no way to reverse the changes in skeletal structure once they happen. And after it's very rare for us to reasonably pass. If I didn't have a rectangle shape and amazing hair I probably wouldn't ever pass. And passing is being accepted, and being accepted is how gender dysphoria is diminished.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes. For the hundredth time (and literally just above your post) you can't just go to a doctor and say you want a sex change. Child or adult, it doesn't work like that.

After everything else, you still have to live full time as your identified sex before you can have gential surgery. Acting before puberty, this reduces the need for other surgeries like facial feminization surgery, and their bodies will look far more like their identified sex than their birth sex.

I don't remember where I disagreed with this-the first point. That works with anything, like the example I gave about depression. One can't just say "I'm depressed" and get treatment for it.

I just feel it's a bit more tricky before puberty because of what I mentioned about teens not knowing if they are transgender and their feelings of whether they are non-binary, both gender, non gender, so have you. How young before puberty should children be considered to have treatment?

Like my depression example, at a young age if someone has depression and anxiety symptoms and says their sex and gender doesn't match up, what other more distinct (or are there?) criteria a child must have in order for doctors to recommend any type of treatment at a young age?

After puberty there is no way to reverse the changes in skeletal structure once they happen. And after it's very rare for us to reasonably pass. If I didn't have a rectangle shape and amazing hair I probably wouldn't ever pass. And passing is being accepted, and being accepted is how gender dysphoria is diminished.

But I'm talking more of the child's health risk depending on how young the child is, if he has symptoms specific to dysphoria, and what doctors would have enough knowledge and experience to determine whether a child should have treatment beyond the child saying he or she is not how they were born.

In my opinion, for medical reasons, I'd wait until the child is old enough for the doctor to determine they have clear-cut symptoms of dysphoria and criteria for treatment. Outside of medical issues such as how someone transgender feels about passing and things of that nature, I couldn't comment. I can see an adult balancing health risks of transitioning and their personal views and emotional involvement, but not children.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

For what it's worth, the hormonal treatments and blockers that the usual suspects seem to be such in arms about appears to have been used on non-transgender teen patients for decades at this point. Presumably, it was perfectly okay to apply these as elements in a wide variety of medical treatments outside of gender transition, so the question arises what makes gender transition so uniquely dangerous as a motivation. Does anybody care to answer that?

Puberty blocker - Wikipedia

Could it be that transgenderism is a somewhat new study than other illnesses puberty blockers would be of use?

I feel the focus should be on whether the criteria or symptoms warrant one treatment over another rather than it being generalized that if we used X treatment for this why not for that.