Gender Ideology Harms Children

[Melinda Rose]

@Mandi & @Saint Frankenstein - To get back on topic, I was attempting to learn about folks via lifestyle rather than cherry-picking, appeals to authority, or whatever. My goal was also to promote the discussion in a way to humanize trans people, and that is what was missed completely. If one of the transsexuals in the forum had responded to the query in a factual way every single non-trans person would at least have in idea of it in a first hand way. No one here apparently can get that I was indirectly helping them, but that is O.K. with me. It turned into nasty passive-aggressive criticisms about me, and you know that just doesn't help any of you. So keep being mad at every person that inquires about you, and see how far that takes you. I really have no interest to continue the conversation, so peace out.

 

[Kapalika]

@Mandi & @Saint Frankenstein - To get back on topic, I was attempting to learn about folks via lifestyle rather than cherry-picking, appeals to authority, or whatever. My goal was also to promote the discussion in a way to humanize trans people, and that is what was missed completely. If one of the transsexuals in the forum had responded to the query in a factual way every single non-trans person would at least have in idea of it in a first hand way. No one here apparently can get that I was indirectly helping them, but that is O.K. with me. It turned into nasty passive-aggressive criticisms about me, and you know that just doesn't help any of you. So keep being mad at every person that inquires about you, and see how far that takes you. I really have no interest to continue the conversation, so peace out.

THERE IS NO "LIFESTYLE" TO DISCUSS

Someone's gender isn't a lifestyle why don't you get that?

Hey Rose, tell me about your lifestyle as a girl. See how silly that sounds? You and me are both female but we don't have the same "lifestyle". I don't see why it would be a reflection of someone's lifestyle if they were say MtF. It's just one detail about them. It doesn't define their lifestyle and I wouldn't see them as any more different or similar to me as a person or a female because of that.

Refuting your statements isn't the same thing as being passive aggressive. Critiques of your poor arguments and pointing out the fallacies you are projecting isn't insults.

 

[Orbit]

THERE IS NO "LIFESTYLE" TO DISCUSS

Someone's gender isn't a lifestyle why don't you get that?

Hey Rose, tell me about your lifestyle as a girl. See how silly that sounds? You and me are both female but we don't have the same "lifestyle". I don't see why it would be a reflection of someone's lifestyle if they were say MtF. It's just one detail about them. It doesn't define their lifestyle and I wouldn't see them as any more different or similar to me as a person or a female because of that.

Refuting your statements isn't the same thing as being passive aggressive. Critiques of your poor arguments and pointing out the fallacies you are projecting isn't insults.

Hi
Just reading along here and thought I'd point out that someone's gender DOES affect their lifestyle. One obvious example is the way women are constantly told where and how to go places at night. "Don't walk alone at night" "Don't walk through the park" etc. This kind of thing affects the kind of things women feel safe or unsafe doing, affecting how they go about their daily lives (lifestyle).

There are actually the seeds of a good discussion here if the posters can stay away from all the personal, ad hominen attacks.

 

[Orbit]

Your post has nothing to do with the subject, so for this thread I'll just ignore you. But, please continue to rant about how I should think or what I should say or how it is said because that has something to do with the, "Gender Ideology Harms Children", topic. This is just weak passive-aggressive diversion, and I hope you are having fun. It doesn't get you anywhere, but hopefully you are entertained.

If I didn't care or wasn't sympathetic I wouldn't ask -- I wouldn't even care, so there is that. Here, take your ax back, and here's your hug sweetie.





@Mandi & @Saint Frankenstein - To get back on topic, I was attempting to learn about folks via lifestyle rather than cherry-picking, appeals to authority, or whatever. My goal was also to promote the discussion in a way to humanize trans people, and that is what was missed completely. If one of the transsexuals in the forum had responded to the query in a factual way every single non-trans person would at least have in idea of it in a first hand way. No one here apparently can get that I was indirectly helping them, but that is O.K. with me. It turned into nasty passive-aggressive criticisms about me, and you know that just doesn't help any of you. So keep being mad at every person that inquires about you, and see how far that takes you. I really have no interest to continue the conversation, so peace out.

Mel-
You're 14 right? I just wanted to say I think it's great that you're seeking out information about important issues at your age, even if it isn't turning out very well. Perhaps this topic can turn itself around into a productive discussion.

 

[Kapalika]

Hi
Just reading along here and thought I'd point out that someone's gender DOES affect their lifestyle. One obvious example is the way women are constantly told where and how to go places at night. "Don't walk alone at night" "Don't walk through the park" etc. This kind of thing affects the kind of things women feel safe or unsafe doing, affecting how they go about their daily lives (lifestyle).

There are actually the seeds of a good discussion here if the posters can stay away from all the personal, ad hominen attacks.

I would say we might get an interesting conversation, but the assumptions she is coming from are flawed and were refuted. No one has committed an ad hominem attack as far as I can tell, not even her. I've tried to help her by pointing out the fallacies she is using and explaining *why* and *how* she was using those fallacies.

So I don't feel like anyone is attacking one another, but it's clear that there is a barrier between communicating. Though given the depth at which me and others have tried I kind of feel that it's on her end. I know I didn't have any trouble understanding what the other posters were telling her.

Now for your first point;

That is kind of true but that is due to societal pressure and gender roles ect, not gender itself. In this respect a fully transitioned transwoman's lifestyle is no different than a cis woman's. So there really isn't much use talking about a "transgender lifestyle" because a transman's lifestyle isn't any different in nature than a cis man's lifestyle, same as a transwoman's and a woman's.

Mel-
You're 14 right? I just wanted to say I think it's great that you're seeking out information about important issues at your age, even if it isn't turning out very well. Perhaps this topic can turn itself around into a productive discussion.

If you had read all of the back and forth you would realize that she keeps insisting on her points without ever addressing the refutations. It's becoming very frustrating.

If we want to go down the line of discussion you are talking about, that kind of deserves a topic of it's own.

 

[Melinda Rose]

Mel-
You're 14 right? I just wanted to say I think it's great that you're seeking out information about important issues at your age, even if it isn't turning out very well. Perhaps this topic can turn itself around into a productive discussion.

Thank you! I am hoping to get into the anthropology or psychology class this summer at college, but I am waiting on my acceptance papers. (You had to do some crazy things to get into college as a young person.) Anyway, I agree with this notion as well. I was hoping that cooler heads would prevail.

@lovesong - Those comments are called strawman, and bandwagon. More people taking your side in an argument doesn't make you right. See; Fundamentalist Christianity.

 

[lovesong]

Those comments are called strawman, and bandwagon. More people taking your side in an argument doesn't make you right. See; Fundamentalist Christianity.

Why thank you miss dictionary! The difference here is that Fundamentalist Christianity is a religion, a doctrine addressing subjective questions such as "what is deity?" and "what comes after death?" whereas my points are simply critiquing poor debate technique. While there is no way to judge the truth of a religious doctrine, there are ways to tell a good argument from a bad one; mainly whether other people see it as strong and convincing, which as I was pointing out, they clearly do not.

 

[Orbit]

I would say we might get an interesting conversation, but the assumptions she is coming from are flawed and were refuted. No one has committed an ad hominem attack as far as I can tell, not even her. I've tried to help her by pointing out the fallacies she is using and explaining *why* and *how* she was using those fallacies.

So I don't feel like anyone is attacking one another, but it's clear that there is a barrier between communicating. Though given the depth at which me and others have tried I kind of feel that it's on her end. I know I didn't have any trouble understanding what the other posters were telling her.

Now for your first point;

That is kind of true but that is due to societal pressure and gender roles ect, not gender itself. In this respect a fully transitioned transwoman's lifestyle is no different than a cis woman's. So there really isn't much use talking about a "transgender lifestyle" because a transman's lifestyle isn't any different in nature than a cis man's lifestyle, same as a transwoman's and a woman's.



If you had read all of the back and forth you would realize that she keeps insisting on her points without ever addressing the refutations. It's becoming very frustrating.

If we want to go down the line of discussion you are talking about, that kind of deserves a topic of it's own.

Actually it is not true that "a transman's/woman's lifestyle is the same as a cis man/woman". There are several issues. One is that the gender roles and norms of the (apparent) opposite sex must be learned. This is not as easy as it sounds, and requires quite a bit of effort. Gender is a performance, not something innate to your biology. Gender IS social, by definition. Trans people received the socialization experiences of their birth gender, so they have to learn to convincingly perform opposite gender roles.

And because gender is a social performance, and because there is so much transphobia and homophobia, if they don't perform it right they are in danger of being the victims of violence, even murder. This awareness of one's own social vulnerability is not "just the same as cis man/woman". We live our daily lives with different assumptions and different consequences for gender non conformity.

Individuals who are biologically intersexed are forced into maintaining "appropriate" gender displays by the society around them, and it does have consequences for their lifestyles, where they go, where they can feel safe, and so on. Gender is absolutely social. Sex is biological. That's how sociologists talk about it because it is less confusing.

 

[Melinda Rose]

Why thank you miss dictionary! The difference here is that Fundamentalist Christianity is a religion, a doctrine addressing subjective questions such as "what is deity?" and "what comes after death?" whereas my points are simply critiquing poor debate technique. While there is no way to judge the truth of a religious doctrine, there are ways to tell a good argument from a bad one; mainly whether other people see it as strong and convincing, which as I was pointing out, they clearly do not.

ld what do debate techniques have to do with what is asked? Nothing at all. Though, I thank you for paying homage to my big dictionary. You're the best!

There is no argument with you since you haven't made a point yet. A better question I have for you now though is, why is this so important to you now after missing nearly all of the thread? Are you in some sort of social justice warrior sleeper cell? One just has to wonder. Do you think gender ideology harms children or not? What exactly is your point other than you know, ad hominem vs me?

Lots of Love,

Mel

 

[lovesong]

Actually it is not true that "a transman's/woman's lifestyle is the same as a cis man/woman". There are several issues. One is that the gender roles and norms of the (apparent) opposite sex must be learned. This is not as easy as it sounds, and requires quite a bit of effort. Gender is a performance, not something innate to your biology. Gender IS social, by definition. Trans people received the socialization experiences of their birth gender, so they have to learn to convincingly perform opposite gender roles.

And because gender is a social performance, and because there is so much transphobia and homophobia, if they don't perform it right they are in danger of being the victims of violence, even murder. This awareness of one's own social vulnerability is not "just the same as cis man/woman". We live our daily lives with different assumptions and different consequences for gender non conformity.

Individuals who are biologically intersexed are forced into maintaining "appropriate" gender displays by the society around them, and it does have consequences for their lifestyles, where they go, where they can feel safe, and so on. Gender is absolutely social. Sex is biological. That's how sociologists talk about it because it is less confusing.

I don't think any of us go around thinking about our behavior in relation to society's expected gender roles. I think that we all just act in ways that feel right to us. Many women don't act girly and feminine and many men don't act macho, we all just do what feels right. This goes for trans people as well. I feel like how much we participate in a certain gender role has less to do with what gender we are and whether we're cis or trans, and more to do with individual personality. Therefore trans people don't have to learn how to behave like any particular gender, they just have to learn to behave like themselves like everyone else does. I don't particularly care whether I'm maintaining an "appropriate" gender role as long as I'm doing what feels right to me and I'm sure a lot of people, both trans and cis, feel the same way.

 

[Orbit]

I don't think any of us go around thinking about our behavior in relation to society's expected gender roles. I think that we all just act in ways that feel right to us. Many women don't act girly and feminine and many men don't act macho, we all just do what feels right. This goes for trans people as well. I feel like how much we participate in a certain gender role has less to do with what gender we are and whether we're cis or trans, and more to do with individual personality. Therefore trans people don't have to learn how to behave like any particular gender, they just have to learn to behave like themselves like everyone else does. I don't particularly care whether I'm maintaining an "appropriate" gender role as long as I'm doing what feels right to me and I'm sure a lot of people, both trans and cis, feel the same way.

Well, as a sociologist who has studied gender for years, I disagree with you. So will any other gender scholar. You don't do what "feels right". You do what you're taught. There are several good sources for research on gender issues. I recommend the journal Gender & Society and Kate Boornstein's book "Gender Outlaws", and Judith Butler's "Gender Trouble".

 

[lovesong]

Well, as a sociologist who has studied gender for years, I disagree with you. So will any other gender scholar. You don't do what "feels right". You do what you're taught. There are several good sources for research on gender issues. I recommend the journal Gender & Society and Kate Boornstein's book "Gender Outlaws", and Judith Butler's "Gender Trouble".

I guess I must be weird then! I am a girl yet I buy a lot of mens clothes, I don't wear makeup (besides my bold statement makeup), don't go to spas or get my nails done, you couldn't pay me all the money in the world to have a kid and I don't want to hold someone else's, I absolutely hate looking and acting excessively feminine, and I prefer to be "one of the guys," or a bro, in social settings. That seems to be a bit off from my expected gender role, so what gives?

 

[Orbit]

I guess I must be weird then! I am a girl yet I buy a lot of mens clothes, I don't wear makeup (besides my bold statement makeup), don't go to spas or get my nails done, you couldn't pay me all the money in the world to have a kid and I don't want to hold someone else's, I absolutely hate looking and acting excessively feminine, and I prefer to be "one of the guys," or a bro, in social settings. That seems to be a bit off from my expected gender role, so what gives?

Actually it's called being "male-identified" in the literature and it means that you are seeking to access the power associated with males, even if subconsciously. Going to spas etc are trivial examples. You perform your gender in the way you interact with others, not just by getting your nails done or not. You're thinking about a hyper-feminine gender stereotype. Most people aren't stereotypes.

 

[lovesong]

Actually it's called being "male-identified" in the literature and it means that you are seeking to access the power associated with males, even if subconsciously. Going to spas etc are trivial examples. You perform your gender in the way you interact with others, not just by getting your nails done or not. You're thinking about a hyper-feminine gender stereotype. Most people aren't stereotypes.

But just as I am not hypersensitive to my actions relating to my gender, neither are trans people. This was my point, trans people live the same daily life as cis people.

 

[Orbit]

But just as I am not hypersensitive to my actions relating to my gender, neither are trans people. This was my point, trans people live the same daily life as cis people.

Do cis people worry about getting murdered for their sexuality?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't think any of us go around thinking about our behavior in relation to society's expected gender roles. I think that we all just act in ways that feel right to us. Many women don't act girly and feminine and many men don't act macho, we all just do what feels right. This goes for trans people as well. I feel like how much we participate in a certain gender role has less to do with what gender we are and whether we're cis or trans, and more to do with individual personality. Therefore trans people don't have to learn how to behave like any particular gender, they just have to learn to behave like themselves like everyone else does. I don't particularly care whether I'm maintaining an "appropriate" gender role as long as I'm doing what feels right to me and I'm sure a lot of people, both trans and cis, feel the same way.

This is how I approach the gendered aspect of myself, too, as a trans man. I just do what comes naturally. Sure, there's societal expectations for both men and women but how many of us actually fit that? There are numerous ways of being a man and numerous ways of being a woman. Before I transitioned, I felt the weight of society's expectations of females and I've sometimes felt that living as a man, but I have ended up recognizing it for what it is and expressing myself as I see fit.

 

[lovesong]

Do cis people worry about getting murdered for their sexuality?

Not every trans person has this fear, and many people have a similar fear of attack for other reasons. Not everyone in a minority group fears for there life for being in a minority

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually it's called being "male-identified" in the literature and it means that you are seeking to access the power associated with males, even if subconsciously. Going to spas etc are trivial examples. You perform your gender in the way you interact with others, not just by getting your nails done or not. You're thinking about a hyper-feminine gender stereotype. Most people aren't stereotypes.

Or it's just how she chooses to express herself. What you've said here sounds dangerously close to saying that trans men are just chasing after "male privilege".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Not every trans person has this fear, and many people have a similar fear of attack for other reasons. Not everyone in a minority group fears for there life for being in a minority

The only reason why some trans people, especially trans women, have this fear in the first place is the insecurities of cis men.

 

[lovesong]

Or it's just how she chooses to express herself. What you've said here sounds dangerously close to saying that trans men are just chasing after "male privilege".

It really does. I just choose to express myself somewhat androgynously/tomboy-ishly and feel more comfortable amongst a group of guys than a group of girls. I still embrace myself as a woman, I'm just not comfortable taking a largely feminine role. I'm not in it for power, I'm in it to feel more comfortable in my skin.