Gender Ideology Harms Children

[Melinda Rose]

Or it's just how she chooses to express herself. What you've said here sounds dangerously close to saying that trans men are just chasing after "male privilege".

Well they are aren't they to some degree? There is no reason to proclaim yourself a man unless you are somewhat looking for that power back in your life. You should be more aware even than the average person of the power gap male vs female being that you should have experience of both.

It is also possible to see MtF as maybe an attempt to fit into a role for a person more psychologically passive than what they were born as regardless of other considerations. Maybe it has less to do with gender identity and more with taking the path of least resistance?

 

[lovesong]

There is no reason to proclaim yourself a man unless you are somewhat looking for that power back in your life.

The only power trans people are looking to claim by coming out as trans is power over their own identities. There absolutely is reason to identify as a man without looking for power and that is to express your true self.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well they are aren't they to some degree? There is no reason to proclaim yourself a man unless you are somewhat looking for that power back in your life. You should be more aware even than the average person of the power gap male vs female being that you should have experience of both.

Nope. I always perceived myself as a male from my earliest memories. I transitioned to be myself, not to gain some sort of "privilege". I now realize that trans men are privileged in some ways over trans women, but I think that's awful and really needs to stop. However, even as a trans man, things aren't wonderful in general. We have to deal with homophobia (as males) and also transphobia. It's easier in many places to "just" be a lesbian than it is to be a trans man.

It is also possible to see MtF as maybe an attempt to fit into a role for a person more psychologically passive than what they were born as regardless of other considerations. Maybe it has less to do with gender identity and more with taking the path of least resistance?

Not all trans women are passive types. I know many who aren't. The real issue here is why you conflate passivity with femininity/womanhood.

 

[lovesong]

The real issue here is why you conflate passivity with femininity/womanhood.

Restated for emphasis.

 

[Melinda Rose]

Nope. I always perceived myself as a male from my earliest memories. I transitioned to be myself, not to gain some sort of "privilege". I now realize that trans men are privileged in some ways over trans women, but I think that's awful and really needs to stop. However, even as a trans man, things aren't wonderful in general. We have to deal with homophobia (as males) and also transphobia. It's easier in many places to "just" be a lesbian than it is to be a trans man.

Not all trans women are passive types. I know many who aren't. The real issue here is why you conflate passivity with femininity/womanhood.

No the point is the value proposition of a gender identity is basically a stereotype of some kind. You conflated to mean that idea has something to do my views again, which just shows your tiring passive aggressive jabs. My female hero is Lagertha really, so uh nope. Check your presumptions at the door. You know I play sports and am involved in intellectually assertive activities. Why can't you just be honest and talk about the topic?

The only value I can see to switch up is the value of having other people perceive you as something else and gaining those supposed stereotypical benefits because otherwise you can basically do anything else a man or woman can without the extra trouble of acceptance.

I mean, if you go back to being a woman right now what do you lose? You can watch sports and do anything else. I think I made my point.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No the point is the value proposition of a gender identity is basically a stereotype of some kind. You conflated to mean that idea has something to do my views again, which just shows your tiring passive aggressive jabs. My female hero is Lagertha really, so uh nope. Check your presumptions at the door. You know I play sports and am involved in intellectually assertive activities. Why can't you just be honest and talk about the topic?

The only value I can see to switch up is the value of having other people perceive you as something else and gaining those supposed stereotypical benefits because otherwise you can basically do anything else a man or woman can without the extra trouble of acceptance.

I mean, if you go back to being a woman right now what do you lose? You can watch sports and do anything else. I think I made my point.

You really have no clue about how trans people perceive ourselves, and you are being highly arrogant, ignorant and offensive. No, I can't just go back to living as a woman and things will be the same. Why? Because I'm not a woman! I don't perceive myself as such and wish to be recognized and treated as who I truly am, and a big part of who I am is a man. It's about being authentic. I'm not into living lies. I'm not comfortable with that. Why don't you try some empathy and putting yourself in our shoes? Would everything honestly be the same for you if you had to live as a man, including having a male body? Let's inject you with male levels of testosterone, have your breasts removed, etc. Would it all just be the same for you?

 

[lovesong]

The only value I can see to switch up is the value of having other people perceive you as something else and gaining those supposed stereotypical benefits because otherwise you can basically do anything else a man or woman can without the extra trouble of acceptance.

I mean, if you go back to being a woman right now what do you lose? You can watch sports and do anything else. I think I made my point.

Everyone wants to be accepted for who they are and no one should have to lie about themselves just to fit into your neat little identity boxes. People are who they are and will express themselves how they want. Claiming that they're doing this for any other reason besides being comfortable with themselves is frankly quite offensive.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Everyone wants to be accepted for who they are and no one should have to lie about themselves just to fit into your neat little identity boxes. People are who they are and will express themselves how they want. Claiming that they're doing this for any other reason besides being comfortable with themselves is frankly quite offensive.

Also, this involves the right to identify as you please and to change your body to fit that identification. I feel more comfortable socially presenting myself as a man, in terms of identity and physical appearance. What's the problem with that? How is it somehow invalid or inauthentic? Do I not have that right, to be myself and to express myself as I see fit, as long as it hurts no one (besides the haters, but that "hurt" is self-induced)?

 

[Kapalika]

Actually it is not true that "a transman's/woman's lifestyle is the same as a cis man/woman". There are several issues. One is that the gender roles and norms of the (apparent) opposite sex must be learned. This is not as easy as it sounds, and requires quite a bit of effort. Gender is a performance, not something innate to your biology. Gender IS social, by definition. Trans people received the socialization experiences of their birth gender, so they have to learn to convincingly perform opposite gender roles.

And because gender is a social performance, and because there is so much transphobia and homophobia, if they don't perform it right they are in danger of being the victims of violence, even murder. This awareness of one's own social vulnerability is not "just the same as cis man/woman". We live our daily lives with different assumptions and different consequences for gender non conformity.

Individuals who are biologically intersexed are forced into maintaining "appropriate" gender displays by the society around them, and it does have consequences for their lifestyles, where they go, where they can feel safe, and so on. Gender is absolutely social. Sex is biological. That's how sociologists talk about it because it is less confusing.

This isn't really an issue once transition is complete. Also I think you place way too much importance on gender roles and expectations.Things are much more lax these days. You are also still conflating gender and gender roles.

Actually it's called being "male-identified" in the literature and it means that you are seeking to access the power associated with males, even if subconsciously. Going to spas etc are trivial examples. You perform your gender in the way you interact with others, not just by getting your nails done or not. You're thinking about a hyper-feminine gender stereotype. Most people aren't stereotypes.

Isn't this just a bunch of outdated theory?

Do cis people worry about getting murdered for their sexuality?

Yes, gay men in Russia in particular.

 

[SomeRandom]

It is also possible to see MtF as maybe an attempt to fit into a role for a person more psychologically passive than what they were born as regardless of other considerations. Maybe it has less to do with gender identity and more with taking the path of least resistance?

Umm why is a female role automatically passive exactly? This ain't the 50s!
Isn't there a common stereotype of black women being highly aggressive?
Hell Drag Queens are among the most out there aggressively flamboyant people you could ever meet. They also have way better make up than most girls. Very good for getting dressing tips, girlfriend. (Not saying that transgenderism is exactly the same as transvestites. But I think there's a bit of overlap.)

 

[SomeRandom]

Do cis people worry about getting murdered for their sexuality?

Did you miss all the stories of gay men being murdered around the world recently?
Ever hear of the phenomenon of "corrective rape?"
Cis people have problems too, you know?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The only reason why some trans people, especially trans women, have this fear in the first place is the insecurities of cis men.

Or, even, some cis men. Your point is totally valid, I just hate getting lumped in with the red-necks.

 

[Orbit]

Did you miss all the stories of gay men being murdered around the world recently?
Ever hear of the phenomenon of "corrective rape?"
Cis people have problems too, you know?

I think you have misread my post. My point was that cis people (this means "hetero" in case you are not familiar) don't have these issues in their everyday lives.

 

[Orbit]

This isn't really an issue once transition is complete. Also I think you place way too much importance on gender roles and expectations.Things are much more lax these days. You are also still conflating gender and gender roles.



Isn't this just a bunch of outdated theory?



Yes, gay men in Russia in particular.

"Cis" means hetero. It doesn't mean gay. Gender is social. Sex is biological. Transistioning has both aspects. You are confusing the concept of gender for something biological.

 

[Orbit]

Or it's just how she chooses to express herself. What you've said here sounds dangerously close to saying that trans men are just chasing after "male privilege".

You have misread my comment. The concept of "male-identified" in the gender literature applies only to cisgender women who think of themselves as "one of the guys" due to internalized sexism. I can't and will not comment on any individual here personally. The concept is not meant to apply to LBGTQ individuals.

 

[Orbit]

Not every trans person has this fear, and many people have a similar fear of attack for other reasons. Not everyone in a minority group fears for there life for being in a minority

Spoken from a position of privilege this is very easy to say, but it doesn't describe the majority of transgender individuals, whose experiences are well documented in the academic literature. I am not commenting on any individual person.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

To comment on some of the discussion, I've not talked to any gender therapists who actually consider gender dysphoria a mental disorder. The depression and anxiety it comes with, yes, but being trans in-and-of itself they do not consider a disorder because that itself isn't what causes someone to be dysfunctional, and it's not like something schizophrenia or bi-polar disorder that inherently causes varying degrees of dysfunction and cannot be cured. With gender dysphoria, we do see that those who successfully transition and assimilate as their identified sex do live happier and more productive lives. Many even state that after genital surgery the dysphoria disappears.
However, these therapists will say that having gender dysphoria as a diagnosable disorder is convenient, and it opens the door for medical treatments and even sometimes insurance coverage.

I just thought you should know there are probably around 103 people on this forum that are trans, but a local massing of them doesn't mean they are more common. I do not trust American stats because on this issue it is way behind in acceptance. 4 in 100,000 are trans, 8 in 100,000 get hit by lightning! (I just thought this was funny!) Anyway, I am on the debate team at school and what you are doing is called anecdotal evidence, and statistical misrepresentation or sharpshooting. The question was about your lifestyle not about data and you are being evasive with me. Are you deceiving me or mis-representing the claims? That's what I've been trying to figure out! I cannot trust your facts, because I can't find them. News media isn't valid for a source, in general, for any debate. So, I have questions of your assertions and I decided that I will ask about _you_... Then you just dodge... You have absolutely no credibility.

If you're on the debate team, you may want to know that what you did is exaggerate...extremely so. I've been here long enough to know there haven't even been 50 trans-members here. And all the numbers I've seen estimate more are trans than 4 in 100,000, with there being more MtF than FtM. But, it is difficult to obtain a number since many of us remain closeted and silent about it, so it is a safe assumption the number is higher, we just don't know how much higher.

It seems to me the big issue is over this question: While gender identity is still fluid is it wrong to intervene early to create the highest probability that a person's identity will conform to their sex.

It's never really been shown to be fluid, except in some who identify as both, or one more so than the other depending on the day, but they are not transsexual and they don't have gender dysphoria. It does seem that gender identity does develop heavily in utero, and depends very much on the mother's system and the hormones a developing fetus is exposed to. We know from a very early age that we are not the gender that people call us, and at this young age is when gender dysphoria sets in because we try to live as what feels normal and natural for us, but society insists that we live as someone else.

[QUOTE="Tomorrows_Child, post: 4697441, member: 58772]who may try and speak out against this ridiculous idea that somehow, a person who is physically one sex may actually me another sex

Do you know why the numbers are so high? Because people who say this kind of **** are the ones making transgender people's lives so hard.

They contribute to the attitudes of those who beat them up and mock them and fire them and evict them and do them real harm make their lives such hells that they can't stand it anymore.

I remember a story of a girl who was forced to dress in camo and kill her pet hamster when she told her parents that she was a girl. They made her do this to prove that she was a boy. She later ended up in foster care and got beat up all the time there. I don't even know if she is still alive, she was very suicidal and homeless when I knew her because of all the ABUSE and DISCRIMINATION she suffered.

So your assertion that transgender people are more likely to be suicidal because they are transgender is WRONG and SICKENING. They are also much more disproportionately likely to be sexually assaulted, murdered ,beat up and abused! That's why they are more likely to attempt suicide! Because of all this crap they disproportionately face! When nearly half of transgender people are discriminated against for simply being transgender and get evicted of course their rates will be higher for suicide. The fact that so many transgender youth are homeless is a reflection of parents kicking them out on the streets which also exposes very young people to these risks.

The issue is abuse, not being transgender!

*edit was grammar and slight correction

Pretty much. If people just let us live, we'd be happy and content. But we're mocked, ridiculed, challenged, fired from our jobs, kicked out of our homes, and many people just do not want to accept us. But it's also ignoring that the suicide rate for post-transitioning transsexuals is much, much, MUCH lower than pre-transition. That alone says a lot.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Besides, you can't "stop" someone from being trans. It's not something you "develop". You either are or you aren't. The GIC and Zucker are relying on outdated psychological theories that are similar to those that were promoted by the defamed researcher, John Money. They seem to think that children are born with some sort of psychological "blank state" and that how they end up identifying, in terms of gender, is extremely malleable and forms during childhood. The evidence doesn't support that and using that framework in "treatment" is very dangerous.

You'd think the world would have learned from people such as David Breimer, but we just haven't, and tragically many refuse to even acknowledge such a person and his unfortunate life.

So the real question is, why is being trans seen as a problem? Why is being gender variant in how you express yourself a problem? Because it really isn't.

Really, I think any answer that can be given will ultimately boil down to them having a problem with us. We can live happy and productive lives that have us being stuck in an emotional black hole, we just need a chance to live that life.

Every major psychological/psychiatric organization that I know of includes psycho-social factors. This indicates that the research does not support your conclusion.

The fact that our brains are different does support such conclusions. We come out of the the womb with a brain that looks distinctively trans, yet also looking more like the brain of the sex we identify with more so than the brain of the sex we are born as. You either are-or-you-aren't because we have found physiological differences, and the psychological improvements from transitioning also support it is the correct treatment. Trying to make us comfortable with our birth-sex is really no different that trying to make someone who is homosexual comfortable with living as a heterosexual.

Amen.

Finally, common sense applied to the issue.

What common sense? It's very misleading, it omits many things, and spins a bias so strong it stands out from a mile away.

You are redefining lifestyle into specifically having only a negative meaning which is false as well.

Being transsexual isn't a lifestyle. No more than being a guy or a gal is a lifestyle. We don't have secret handshakes, slogans on the wall, and many of us don't even like support groups because they revolve around the "trans" label and many of us just want to be seen as who we are, which is just as a man or woman, just like like any other man or woman.

Hi
Just reading along here and thought I'd point out that someone's gender DOES affect their lifestyle. One obvious example is the way women are constantly told where and how to go places at night. "Don't walk alone at night" "Don't walk through the park" etc. This kind of thing affects the kind of things women feel safe or unsafe doing, affecting how they go about their daily lives (lifestyle).

Gender to a point does influence life style, but so does culture, upbringing, and many other things. And, of course, individual results and experiences vary. With transsexuals, it isn't a lifestyle. Those who have gender dysphoria go about life, depressed, anxious, and sometimes barely wanting to live, if live at all, until we finally get to live as we should. Of course cis-gendered people tend to not have the same issues, but what is the difference if a group of women, made up of cis- and trans- women, have a girl's night out?

This is how I approach the gendered aspect of myself, too, as a trans man. I just do what comes naturally. Sure, there's societal expectations for both men and women but how many of us actually fit that? There are numerous ways of being a man and numerous ways of being a woman. Before I transitioned, I felt the weight of society's expectations of females and I've sometimes felt that living as a man, but I have ended up recognizing it for what it is and expressing myself as I see fit.

I think many transsexuals probably struggle with such a thing. Many of us, especially MtF, act out in a very stereotypical and hyperized version of our birth sex trying to prove to the world and ourselves, but we cause much damage to ourselves in the process. Then, as we begin to transition, we desire the acceptance we so long and yearn for that we become hyper-sensitive to gender norms, and cause much damage to our selves in the process. Then many of us realize we still aren't living our lives, and then we figure that is exactly what we must do. Heavy metal isn't considered a feminine genre of music, but being a woman doesn't mean I have to quit liking it or listening to it and have to start listening to N Sync or Backstreet Boys.
And it's no different with cis- people. My best friend, she hunts, fishes, and she does consider herself "one of the guys." And she definitely doesn't have any internalized self-hatred or loathing of being a woman. She's just not into hair, make-up, or other stuff like that. Me, I've had long hair for years now, even though it's "not a guy thing," same with my ear piercings. But, as a musician, long nails aren't really something I can do. But oh well.

It is also possible to see MtF as maybe an attempt to fit into a role for a person more psychologically passive than what they were born as regardless of other considerations. Maybe it has less to do with gender identity and more with taking the path of least resistance?

Some transwomen are passive, some are not. Some transmen are passive, some are not. Some cis-men are passive, while some are not, and some cis-women are passive, while some are not.
If you read up on the subject, and study it, it has everything to do with gender identity. As a group, transsexuals are just as varied as our cis-counterparts. There is no "one-size fits all" category we can all be lumped into. Some trans-women are so passive and so into gender norms and expectations that they will only wear dresses and skirts and they avoid and loath jeans, while some get tattoos and play in punk, rock, or metal bands.

"Cis" means hetero. It doesn't mean gay. Gender is social. Sex is biological. Transistioning has both aspects. You are confusing the concept of gender for something biological.

The cis- label doesn't describe sexuality, but someone whose birth-sex matches their identified sex.

 

[MARCELLO]

Do cis people worry about getting murdered for their sexuality?

In the 3rd world,definitely yes! and it makes 2/3 of world population.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You have misread my comment. The concept of "male-identified" in the gender literature applies only to cisgender women who think of themselves as "one of the guys" due to internalized sexism. I can't and will not comment on any individual here personally. The concept is not meant to apply to LBGTQ individuals.

Well, that "literature" sounds outdated and based on faulty assumptions. It sounds like it's no older than the '70s or '80s. A tomboy is not necessarily suffering from internalized sexism. Sometimes people are just naturally a certain way.