Gender Ideology Harms Children

[Saint Frankenstein]

Umm why is a female role automatically passive exactly? This ain't the 50s!
Isn't there a common stereotype of black women being highly aggressive?
Hell Drag Queens are among the most out there aggressively flamboyant people you could ever meet. They also have way better make up than most girls. Very good for getting dressing tips, girlfriend. (Not saying that transgenderism is exactly the same as transvestites. But I think there's a bit of overlap.)

Drag queens aren't transvestites. Transvestism is a sexual fetish and it's mostly a hetero male thing.

 

[RRex]

Will someone please explain what "cis" means?

I keep hearing it, but I have no idea what it is.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Will someone please explain what "cis" means?

I keep hearing it, but I have no idea what it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

Basically just non-trans.

 

[RRex]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

Basically just non-trans.

Thank you, @Saint Frankenstein.

 

[Orbit]

Well, that "literature" sounds outdated and based on faulty assumptions. It sounds like it's no older than the '70s or '80s. A tomboy is not necessarily suffering from internalized sexism. Sometimes people are just naturally a certain way.

I'm just telling you what gender theory says about the issue. Sociologists, like physicists, of course debate the relative merits of different points of theory. Theory isn't a monolith, nor is it "outdated".

 

[Orbit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

Basically just non-trans.

It is also used by some writers as a synonym for "heteronormative", eg being identified with your birth gender and being heterosexual.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm just telling you what gender theory says about the issue. Sociologists, like physicists, of course debate the relative merits of different points of theory. Theory isn't a monolith, nor is it "outdated".

That's what some currents of gender theory say about it. It sounds a lot like the rhetoric of 2nd wave radfems.

It is also used by some writers as a synonym for "heteronormative", eg being identified with your birth gender and being heterosexual.

That's not how it's used in trans discourse. I've never heard it being linked to heteronormativity. A cis person is basically just a non-trans person. It doesn't say anything in of itself about their sexuality/sexual orientation.

 

[Mister Emu]

It's never really been shown to be fluid

Fluid was perhaps too strong of a word.

The fact that our brains are different does support such conclusions.

You either are-or-you-aren't because we have found physiological differences

You've, in this very thread, earlier acknowledged that psycho-social factors play a part in being trans.

but they are not transsexual and they don't have gender dysphoria.

If someone shows a persistent distress at being gendered in conformity with their sex, they are suffering and some kind of no true scotsman argument to erase them because it doesn't fit a political angle for trans acceptance is unconscionable.

 

[SomeRandom]

Drag queens aren't transvestites. Transvestism is a sexual fetish and it's mostly a hetero male thing.

My mistake.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think you have misread my post. My point was that cis people (this means "hetero" in case you are not familiar) don't have these issues in their everyday lives.

Cis is normally shorthand for cisgendered. Cis or Cisgendered is a term for a person born with their sex matching their gender. That's really the only definition I know of. In fact when discussing such things people actually add on sexuality, because Cis doesn't denote sexual orientation. Like cis straight males, for example.

I actually looked it up, no where does any definition give sexuality or heteronormative attitudes as characteristics of the term. The closest I could find is that it is used to denote cisnormativity in trans discourse the same way heteronormativity does in homosexual discourse.

So what definition are you using?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cis
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/cis-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender
By the way, I always thought the term was merely internet vernacular. But apparently it's an academic thing as well. Learned something new today.

 

[Orbit]

That's what some currents of gender theory say about it. It sounds a lot like the rhetoric of 2nd wave radfems.

That's not how it's used in trans discourse. I've never heard it being linked to heteronormativity. A cis person is basically just a non-trans person. It doesn't say anything in of itself about their sexuality/sexual orientation.

It's not from the 70s, no. Feminist/gender" theory is very diverse. You might argue there is no such thing as "false consciousness" but I would disagree. You can argue that "male-identified women" don't exist, and I would disagree.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's not from the 70s, no. Feminist/gender" theory is very diverse. You might argue there is no such thing as "false consciousness" but I would disagree. You can argue that "male-identified women" don't exist, and I would disagree.

"False consciousness"? The Marxist term? What does that have to do with trans issues? "Male-identified women" does sound like some 1970s radfem garbage and it comes off as shaming.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

My mistake.

No worries. Drag queens and kings are artists and performers who create a persona/character. They're usually LGBT people, but there's some straight ones. Transvestism is a sexual fetish for wearing the clothes of the opposite sex. Transvestites are usually straight men.

 

[Orbit]

"False consciousness"? The Marxist term? What does that have to do with trans issues? "Male-identified women" does sound like some 1970s radfem garbage and it comes off as shaming.

Well, I am more familiar with how it is used than you are. We weren't discussing trans issues, we were discussing heteronormative cisgender. There is a context to it.

You could argue it "sounds shaming" but I would disagree and say in many cases it is accurate. I object to the term "1970s radfem garbage" as it disparages the movement that gave birth to public interest in gender issues and which led to consciousness-raising and activism about trans issues.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, I am more familiar with how it is used than you are. We weren't discussing trans issues, we were discussing heteronormative cisgender. There is a context to it.

This thread is about trans people and issues. You come in and you're basically confusing everyone by using obscure, Ivory Tower language and you're not even using terms like "cis" in the way everyone else is using. It's rather difficult to communicate with you here.

You could argue it "sounds shaming" but I would disagree and say in many cases it is accurate. I object to the term "1970s radfem garbage" as it disparages the movement that gave birth to public interest in gender issues and which led to consciousness-raising and activism about trans issues.

I don't have much respect for that movement and they don't tend to have much respect for trans people, so object all you please.

 

[Orbit]

This thread is about trans people and issues. You come in and you're basically confusing everyone by using obscure, Ivory Tower language and you're not even using terms like "cis" in the way everyone else is using. It's rather difficult to communicate with you here.


I don't have much respect for that movement and they don't tend to have much respect for trans people, so object all you please.

That is absolutely inaccurate. Where do you think the first trans activism came from? It came from the feminist movement.
I seem to be communicating just fine. You seem to be unable to have a civil conversation without turning it into a brawl of passive aggressive personal insults, so I'll leave you to your thread.

 

[Melinda Rose]

The only power trans people are looking to claim by coming out as trans is power over their own identities. There absolutely is reason to identify as a man without looking for power and that is to express your true self.

I am beginning to see it more as a scene or fad based on the responses here, and how people are ganging up on people. There are probably some true transsexuals who are not part of that, but I'm not sold on the agenda presented here which is marked by meanness and intolerance of any non-conforming view. These are classical signs of bigotry or hatred coming from the other side of the table, and at that point I will not respect those individuals specifically for their own behavior even if I believe in equality ultimately for everyone -- even if a point could be made it is being made by terrible examples of humanity.

The schoolyard bully act does nothing to convince me or anyone else that you have a point, and potentially damages any gains that trans people are making in any other area. Every single conversation here has been identical:

1) Weak adhominem attack
2) Shift goalposts, or strawman
3) Rise and repeat

Suffice to say, since I can see no thinking is actually happening at this point we can conclude that any real debate is over.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That is absolutely inaccurate. Where do you think the first trans activism came from? It came from the feminist movement.

Lol, nope. Try researchers like Magnus Hirschfeld from Weimar Germany in the '20s. Feminists didn't really care about trans people until the 3rd wave. Before than, trans activists were generally found in the broader gay rights movement.

I seem to be communicating just fine. You seem to be unable to have a civil conversation without turning it into a brawl of passive aggressive personal insults, so I'll leave you to your thread.

You can do what you want. I don't care. Lol.

 

[Orbit]

Lol, nope. Try researchers like Magnus Hirschfeld from Weimar Germany in the '20s. Feminists didn't really care about trans people until the 3rd wave. Before than, trans activists were generally found in the broader gay rights movement.

You can do what you want. I don't care. Lol.

Right. And there's no connection between feminism and the gay rights movement, right? Sorry, but getting your history from Wiki doesn't make you an expert.

 

[lovesong]

I am beginning to see it more as a scene or fad

This is blatantly offensive to trans people.

These are classical signs of bigotry or hatred coming from the other side of the table

It is not bigotry to stand on the side of acceptance, and nobody arguing against you is being hateful.

even if I believe in equality ultimately for everyone

Obviously not since you just stated that you believe being trans is a fad.

Every single conversation here has been identical:

1) Weak adhominem attack

Nobody has personally attacked you or said anything against you as an individual, the only thing that has been criticized is your argument and means of presenting it.