Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

[an anarchist]

Debate point: Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

My frame of reference is Christian churches in my part of USA.

I say yes, churches are a scam. From my experience, they promise blessings from God in return for tithes. I have sat through many sermons when I grew up Christian. Many of those sermons were dedicated to telling the congregation they needed to tithe more. Congregants were guaranteed God's blessing if they gave the church money, and conversely were guaranteed God's wrath if they didn't tithe properly. I've been to the Pastor's nice house paid for by the congregation. Seems like the church was funding his lax and comfortable lifestyle.

I understand that some churches do charitable work and tithes will go to that. But that is not the case, generally speaking (from my experience).

I also believe that people should be able to freely fund their place of worship.

Promising God's blessings in return for cash and guaranteeing God's wrath due to lack of tithing is the name of the game though. And it often ends up with the Pastor acquiring a nice car.

It's a big scam I say!

Why make this thread? To make a fuss for the sake of making a fuss? Partly... But also, I think it is important to call out scams. Church is a blatant scam that is protected by society.

 

[JustGeorge]

Debate point: Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

My frame of reference is Christian churches in my part of USA.

I say yes, churches are a scam. From my experience, they promise blessings from God in return for tithes. I have sat through many sermons when I grew up Christian. Many of those sermons were dedicated to telling the congregation they needed to tithe more. Congregants were guaranteed God's blessing if they gave the church money, and conversely were guaranteed God's wrath if they didn't tithe properly. I've been to the Pastor's nice house paid for by the congregation. Seems like the church was funding his lax and comfortable lifestyle.

I understand that some churches do charitable work and tithes will go to that. But that is not the case, generally speaking (from my experience).

I also believe that people should be able to freely fund their place of worship.

Promising God's blessings in return for cash and guaranteeing God's wrath due to lack of tithing is the name of the game though. And it often ends up with the Pastor acquiring a nice car.

It's a big scam I say!

Why make this thread? To make a fuss for the sake of making a fuss? Partly... But also, I think it is important to call out scams. Church is a blatant scam that is protected by society.

I think some are.

I think some are, overall, respectable places for interested community to gather.

I think if you're hearing about tithing again and again, you're probably in a scam one(unless there's some unpaid bill that's stressing things).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Debate point: Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

No.

 

[ChristineM]

Some are...

Megachurches, Megamansions: Pastors' Homes Valued in the Millions

 

[We Never Know]

Debate point: Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

My frame of reference is Christian churches in my part of USA.

I say yes, churches are a scam. From my experience, they promise blessings from God in return for tithes. I have sat through many sermons when I grew up Christian. Many of those sermons were dedicated to telling the congregation they needed to tithe more. Congregants were guaranteed God's blessing if they gave the church money, and conversely were guaranteed God's wrath if they didn't tithe properly. I've been to the Pastor's nice house paid for by the congregation. Seems like the church was funding his lax and comfortable lifestyle.

I understand that some churches do charitable work and tithes will go to that. But that is not the case, generally speaking (from my experience).

I also believe that people should be able to freely fund their place of worship.

Promising God's blessings in return for cash and guaranteeing God's wrath due to lack of tithing is the name of the game though. And it often ends up with the Pastor acquiring a nice car.

It's a big scam I say!

Why make this thread? To make a fuss for the sake of making a fuss? Partly... But also, I think it is important to call out scams. Church is a blatant scam that is protected by society.

They are a tax exempt business.

Are some scams... Some televangelist are. Jim Bakker, Peter Popoff to name a few.

 

[InChrist]

Debate point: Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

My frame of reference is Christian churches in my part of USA.

I say yes, churches are a scam. From my experience, they promise blessings from God in return for tithes. I have sat through many sermons when I grew up Christian. Many of those sermons were dedicated to telling the congregation they needed to tithe more. Congregants were guaranteed God's blessing if they gave the church money, and conversely were guaranteed God's wrath if they didn't tithe properly. I've been to the Pastor's nice house paid for by the congregation. Seems like the church was funding his lax and comfortable lifestyle.

I understand that some churches do charitable work and tithes will go to that. But that is not the case, generally speaking (from my experience).

I also believe that people should be able to freely fund their place of worship.

Promising God's blessings in return for cash and guaranteeing God's wrath due to lack of tithing is the name of the game though. And it often ends up with the Pastor acquiring a nice car.

It's a big scam I say!

Why make this thread? To make a fuss for the sake of making a fuss? Partly... But also, I think it is important to call out scams. Church is a blatant scam that is protected by society.

The kind of church you describe appears to be a scam. There are plenty of fake, scam type churches or preachers who fleece people for their own gain. The scriptures repeatedly warn about wolves in sheep’s clothing.
The church or body of Christ is supposed to provide spiritual care and physical when needed for its members and those in the community.

 

[F1fan]

I’ve seen many churches do excellent work for neighborhoods and communities, so in general they certainly serve numerous purposes. My grandparents church served lunch to about 100 impoverished families twice a week and she asked me to help once in a while. Talk about a humbling experience for a selfish teenager. That’s where their money went after all the bills.

There are churches that exploit believers more money snd greed, and that category is quite contrary to what religions claim. Humans have many weaknesses and only the naturally wise have the advantage.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Debate point: Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

^ in truth, the question is a scam -- it's little but irresponsible church-bashing with a broad brush

 

[an anarchist]

^ in truth, the question is a scam -- it's little but irresponsible church-bashing with a broad brush

I disagree

My point about churches using God as a threat to convince people to tithe is true.

Simply dismissing the OP doesn't work here.

 

[an anarchist]

^ in truth, the question is a scam -- it's little but irresponsible church-bashing with a broad brush

The question is actually a debate point on the debate forum.

"the question is a scam" is plain silly

 

[Viker]

Generally speaking, no. However, prosperity gospel/faith healing/money for salvation types are obvious. Those still don't comprise most churches.

 

[an anarchist]

Generally speaking, no. However, prosperity gospel/faith healing/money for salvation types are obvious. Those still don't comprise most churches.

Hmm.

I understand that dynamics vary everywhere, but from my experience in my town, it seems all the churches I know of and been to heavily emphasise tithing. Pretty much all the churches I've been to do the whole scam routine. It's a business model ya know? And it seemed to me that the Pastor always had his personal paycheck come out of the tithe (I've listened to Pastors defend their practice of doing this).

 

[Twilight Hue]

Debate point: Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

My frame of reference is Christian churches in my part of USA.

I say yes, churches are a scam. From my experience, they promise blessings from God in return for tithes. I have sat through many sermons when I grew up Christian. Many of those sermons were dedicated to telling the congregation they needed to tithe more. Congregants were guaranteed God's blessing if they gave the church money, and conversely were guaranteed God's wrath if they didn't tithe properly. I've been to the Pastor's nice house paid for by the congregation. Seems like the church was funding his lax and comfortable lifestyle.

I understand that some churches do charitable work and tithes will go to that. But that is not the case, generally speaking (from my experience).

I also believe that people should be able to freely fund their place of worship.

Promising God's blessings in return for cash and guaranteeing God's wrath due to lack of tithing is the name of the game though. And it often ends up with the Pastor acquiring a nice car.

It's a big scam I say!

Why make this thread? To make a fuss for the sake of making a fuss? Partly... But also, I think it is important to call out scams. Church is a blatant scam that is protected by society.

It's a scam when they take advantage of their tax exempt status and use it for non-religious business ventures.

 

[PureX]

To be honest, I wouldn’t know how many churches are a scam And how many aren’t. But keep in mind that making false promises for money happens all day every day in this country. We call it a “free market”. Lying, cheating, stealing and exploiting people is so commonplace that we just take it for granted. So why would religious organizations be any different?

 

[Viker]

Hmm.

I understand that dynamics vary everywhere, but from my experience in my town, it seems all the churches I know of and been to heavily emphasise tithing. Pretty much all the churches I've been to do the whole scam routine. It's a business model ya know? And it seemed to me that the Pastor always had his personal paycheck come out of the tithe (I've listened to Pastors defend their practice of doing this).

Tithing makes sense. Light bills don't pay for themselves. Many smaller non-denominational churches don't own the property they're on so they have a lease to pay.

 

[Quintessence]

An important follow-up detail relevant to the opening post:

What are your criteria for calling something a "scam" precisely? It's one of those words that has a rather precise and technical meaning in some usages but is vague snarl word in others.

Are you meaning "scam" as an intentional perversion specifically to get someone to surrender something of value? That is, intentional deception and trickery is being used to part someone from their assets? In the context of a church, the pastor is basically an imposter who doesn't really believe in God or the teachings of Christ? That's a much higher bar to clear than just using "scam" as a vague snarl word.

 

[an anarchist]

Are you meaning "scam" as an intentional perversion specifically to get someone to surrender something of value? That is, intentional deception and trickery is being used to part someone from their assets? In the context of a church, the pastor is basically an imposter who doesn't really believe in God or the teachings of Christ? That's a much higher bar to clear than just using "scam" as a vague snarl word.

I'd like to suggest that perhaps it is not such a "much higher bar" to clear. Though, it is impossible to know with any certainty if a Pastor believes or not what he preaches. And perhaps a genuine but naive pastor is part of a larger church organization which has suspect characters. Anecdotal conjecture on my part. But I do suspect that many pastors don't genuinely believe Christianity, rather, being a Pastor is a lucrative career choice.

What are your criteria for calling something a "scam" precisely? It's one of those words that has a rather precise and technical meaning in some usages but is vague snarl word in others.

I suppose I don't have strict criteria. Even if a Pastor genuinely believes that you should cough up ten percent of your paycheck to him. Even if that same Pastor genuinely believes that they have a God given right to pay their own bills with the tithe money, I still call it a scam.

I think a Pastor shouldn't personally profit from tithes. When I started Bible college as a zealous Christian on route to become a Pastor, I was intent on having a day job in conjunction with being a Pastor. I saw it and still see it as immoral for a Pastor to make a living off of tithes. This is what I call a scam. The pastor's genuinity is irrelevant, though I think it is fair to suspect in many cases.

Tithing is cool. Mutually funding a place of worship is cool. The Pastor should work a day job and help pay the church bills, not be a church bill.

Thank you for asking for elaboration.

 

[JustGeorge]

I'd like to suggest that perhaps it is not such a "much higher bar" to clear. Though, it is impossible to know with any certainty if a Pastor believes or not what he preaches. And perhaps a genuine but naive pastor is part of a larger church organization which has suspect characters. Anecdotal conjecture on my part. But I do suspect that many pastors don't genuinely believe Christianity, rather, being a Pastor is a lucrative career choice.



I suppose I don't have strict criteria. Even if a Pastor genuinely believes that you should cough up ten percent of your paycheck to him. Even if that same Pastor genuinely believes that they have a God given right to pay their own bills with the tithe money, I still call it a scam.

I think a Pastor shouldn't personally profit from tithes. When I started Bible college as a zealous Christian on route to become a Pastor, I was intent on having a day job in conjunction with being a Pastor. I saw it and still see it as immoral for a Pastor to make a living off of tithes. This is what I call a scam. The pastor's genuinity is irrelevant, though I think it is fair to suspect in many cases.

Tithing is cool. Mutually funding a place of worship is cool. The Pastor should work a day job and help pay the church bills, not be a church bill.

Thank you for asking for elaboration.

I will say I did an extraordinary amount of legwork at a UU church for awhile. I often ended up working with the reverend on this or that.

She wasn't my favorite person, but she put in a lot of work. Every day. Helping coordinate all the stuff that went on, tending to individual congregants, putting together sermons... She could not have worked a day job and did all that she did.

Her paycheck came from the offerings/pledges. She lived middle class.

I didn't see a problem.

 

[Heyo]

Debate point: Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

No.
Generally speaking, people (should) know what they are getting into when they join the club. Churches aren't secret societies nobody knows anything about. Somebody who claims to have been scammed by a church is either very naïve, or was caught when still uninformed (too young to know).

 

[RestlessSoul]

Debate point: Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

My frame of reference is Christian churches in my part of USA.

That's a very limited frame of reference, if you don't mind me saying so.

But as the USA appears to be the spiritual home of the scam, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that this is broadly true, in your frame of reference.