Genesis 2

[sojourner]

What you're saying is very important... to still believe in the spiritual aspects of the Bible, yet to keep an open mind about the things that might not be accurate scientifically. Like you say, a strict interpretation should lead us to believe the Earth is flat and that the Sun revolves around it. A thousand years ago, why not believe that. But now, through scientific observation, we know different. So what do we do with the spiritual part of the Bible? Unfortunately, hard-nosed fundamentalist Christians make it an all or nothing proposition, and many of us chose to reject Christianity because of their uncompromising attitude.

What, I think, many forget (and I think you're sailing right up next to the problem in your post) is that the bible was never intended to be the "Last Word" in authoritative definitions of faith, theology, history, or morality. What's recorded in the texts MUST be taken under consideration within the context of the whole Tradition of faith. It does not stand on its own. Many times, it suggests, points out, and clarifies the scope of the Tradition, but does not dictate or define the whole of it.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
CG D, Yes, it is a lot of varieties, but to give a modern day comparison to that ancient DNA which is found in all living things, possibly will allow you to understand. Consider the computer chip---small--but controls many functions.
And GOD placed that knowledge in the DNA to control its action.

That TV show implied, I believe it might have been Ken Ham, that a wolf was the primary source of all the DNA that "evolved" "mutated" or somehow became the other dog-like creatures. But there is also a close relationship from a mouse to a rat. From a weasel to a skunk. From a chimpanzee to a gorilla. Why couldn't it be possible that the controlling DNA, placed by a creator, in mammals, had the capability to change some of them into the next higher, more complex animal in the chain or phylum, whatever it's called?

All the raw biological material is the same isn't it? Isn't it just that some animals have more advanced parts than other animals? Like we don't even have the best of everything that is out there in the animal world. We can't see and hear as well as some. We're not as big and strong as others. But our special tweaking, of the same basic materials, gave us the ability to think and to use tools to use, or abuse, our environment to make it more to our comfortable for us... and the ability to wonder how we got here. God is a good answer. It's a well established answer. But, we have learned so much through the years that causes some of us to question the absolute correctness of some of those religious answers.

And, if some of those religious answers aren't correct, or have been misinterpreted, or were only metaphoric "myth", then other things that religions say and require people to do might not be right either. And that's the problem. Some want religion to be wrong and others want it to be right. And it's difficult for religion to be just partly right and justify what it says and does. If it's not 100% from God, then it's just ancient man-made myths, rules and ideas that need to be let go of.

Again, CG D, Do you believe there is a Creator GOD? It is a personal belief---not what someone else thinks, supposes, suggests, Theorizes, etc.
Quit agonizing! What say YOU? ALL one sees is real--Therefore, is the source, for what one acknowledges as real/exists, intelligent enough to have Created it for a purpose; OR did it just arrive in a chaotic "Bang" and a chanced "spontaneous existence"? Your decision.

The Scriptures do not compromise with evil. Wrong actions of all types will always be wrong. It is mankind who tries to sugar-coat sin to be palatable by their belonging to all types of great sounding named institutions with pleasing doctrines claiming to be from GOD. Remember, in the midst of it all, There is still a "remnant" which continue to stay Obedient. Rev.12:17, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

So where have you determined to cast your 100%?

 

[outhouse]

You carry no credibility here.

You cannot even comprehend simple questions and statements.

 

[sincerly]

You carry no credibility here.

You cannot even comprehend simple questions and statements.

The use of "YOU" reveals that your post is not concerning the topic, but is and attack upon my person.

 

[sojourner]

The Scriptures do not compromise with evil. Wrong actions of all types will always be wrong. It is mankind who tries to sugar-coat sin to be palatable by their belonging to all types of great sounding named institutions with pleasing doctrines claiming to be from GOD. Remember, in the midst of it all, There is still a "remnant" which continue to stay Obedient. Rev.12:17, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

Elitism masquerading as "Remnant theology" is a cheap fix for the realization that piety is no fit substitute for deep spiritual living.

So where have you determined to cast your 100%?

Sounds suspiciously like proselytization to me...

 

[sincerly]

The Scriptures do not compromise with evil. Wrong actions of all types will always be wrong. It is mankind who tries to sugar-coat sin to be palatable by their belonging to all types of great sounding named institutions with pleasing doctrines claiming to be from GOD. Remember, in the midst of it all, There is still a "remnant" which continue to stay Obedient. Rev.12:17, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

Elitism masquerading as "Remnant theology" is a cheap fix for the realization that piety is no fit substitute for deep spiritual living.

The "elitism" is those who the Creator GOD declared would be in HIS Kingdom. It was open for ALL, but many decided that it wasn't worth foregoing their will to submit to the Father's WILL.
It is with "piety"/"dedicated reverence" that one has that "deep spiritual living" to be a part of that "Remnant" who choose to remain Obedient and faithful while others are arrogantly denying GOD'S Principles for the Traditions and decrees made by mankind.

Sounds suspiciously like proselytization to me...

One should be brought to understand the "Scriptures" which are the underlying topic of discussion.

 

[outhouse]

The use of "YOU" reveals that your post is not concerning the topic, but is and attack upon my person.

Because YOU cannot follow the topic, or comprehend it.

You really have no business talking about things you know nothing about.

 

[outhouse]

One should be brought to understand the "Scriptures" which are the underlying topic of discussion.

Not "one" YOU should be brought to understand them.


Does it bother you that you could be embarrassing good Christians everywhere?


We would like to debate genesis with someone who has a grip on the material

 

[outhouse]

This is viewed a truth for most of the educated world, theist included, and contains substantiated facts to back their position.

You don't have to like the truth, or be part of the majority.


IAP - IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution

We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

•In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
•Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
•Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
•Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.

 

[Thief]

Not "one" YOU should be brought to understand them.


Does it bother you that you could be embarrassing good Christians everywhere?


We would like to debate genesis with someone who has a grip on the material

And when you get a grip on it...let us know.

 

[sojourner]

The "elitism" is those who the Creator GOD declared would be in HIS Kingdom.

...Aaaand, that would be... all of us. Christ didn't come into the world to condemn the world, but so that we all might be saved...

It was open for ALL, but many decided that it wasn't worth foregoing their will to submit to the Father's WILL.

Nope. "...every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..."

It is with "piety"/"dedicated reverence" that one has that "deep spiritual living" to be a part of that "Remnant" who choose to remain Obedient and faithful while others are arrogantly denying GOD'S Principles for the Traditions and decrees made by mankind.

That's not what God said when God said "I don't want your sacrifices." That's not what Jesus taught the Pharisees when he called them hypocrites, standing on the street corners and praying loudly.

One should be brought to understand the "Scriptures" which are the underlying topic of discussion.

Yeah, but that's not even close to what you actually said, to wit:

So where have you determined to cast your 100%?

BUSTED!

 

[CG Didymus]

The Scriptures do not compromise with evil.

Do Hindu Scriptures compromise with evil? Do Buddhist? Do Zoroastrian? Does the Koran compromise with evil? Most, if not all, religions don't compromise with evil. They give an explanation of why we're here and where we're going and a road map on how to get there.

Your Christian view of Genesis is foundational to everything else you believe to be true. If one part of it is proven wrong, your whole belief-system crumbles. But your belief-system makes all those other religions wrong, and like I've said many times, it even makes Judaism wrong. It even makes many other Christians wrong in how they view the Bible.

Let's talk about spiritual "elitism". Jews could get an elitist attitude since the Bible says that they are God's chosen people. Many different Christian groups could, because they think that they have the inside track on the correct way to believe in God and Jesus. But, like I've asked many times, why don't you believe like a Mormon or a JW? They don't compromise with evil. But you don't. Why is that? Because you've listened. You've read. You've thought about it, and you made a decision that they are wrong and another way is right. So what do you do? Stop learning? Stop questioning and asking yourself if what you believe is really the truth? I'm sure you believe that everybody else that doesn't think like you should do that. That all those people in every other religion should question their beliefs and learn and study to make sure what they believe is really the truth. So why not you? Have you learned all there is to know? Are sure your view of the Bible is the only correct one? In your lifetime, have you ever changed your beliefs?

What if you would have been born 1000 years ago and were taught how to believe in God and Jesus? Would you even suspect that you were being taught something wrong? Why would you? What if you were born 500 years ago. Would you stay Catholic or would you follow Luther? Or maybe follow Calvin? Today, though, would you follow any of them? Probably not. Why is that? Because Christianity is changing, evolving.

Your view of Christianity is relatively new. Your view has evolved into what it is today. I doubt if you would be part of a Christian board of inquiry and ask an astronomer to recant his work, because he says that the Earth revolves around the Sun. But why did Christians do it to Galileo? Your view stipulates how a person gets saved. But that has changed. What about all those pious people before the protestant revolution that thought they were following the truth but had it a little bit wrong? Maybe they prayed to Mary. Maybe they went to confession.

If you are right, are those pre-protestant Christians even saved? Technically, I don't see how you can. And if God did make a provision then, that is a compromise, and gave them the benefit of the doubt, why not now? Why not a pious Hindu, like Gandhi? Or a devout Mormon that loves Jesus and serves him but has the wrong belief-system? Does God compromise with them? Or, is it straight to hell, because they could have and should have found the real truth.

It was open for ALL, but many decided that it wasn't worth foregoing their will to submit to the Father's WILL.

To be consistent, I guess that has to be your answer. No if's and's or but's. They have the wrong religion. It doesn't matter how good you are. Good doesn't get you into heaven. It's only the blood of Jesus. But wait, Jesus hadn't shed his blood back in Genesis. Are Adam and Eve in heaven? Is Abraham? How about David? Can the blood of bulls and goats wash away sins? Can a repentant heart? 'Cause isn't that kind of like "works"? It's something the person does. So wait a minute here, God did make a provision, a compromise, for pre-Jesus people. The evil they committed was not held against them? Since none of them were perfect, only Jesus was perfect, then Elijah, Jacob/Israel, Isaiah, all of them, even though they sinned, were forgiven, right?

I wonder where the line was drawn on "good enough" and "no, not quite there"? I suppose Saul didn't make it. How about that reluctant prophet Jonah? Did he really trust God? What about Samson? Did his "works" at the end get him a pardon for his sexual sinning? Did anybody and can anybody submit perfectly to the will of God? Does anyone know what the perfect will of God is? Did Adam and Eve? Huh? God told them, face to face, not to eat of the forbidden fruit, but a serpent deceived her and talked her into it... and it tasted good. I don't know. Sounds like a set up to me.

All of life sounds like a set up to me. Don't do this. Don't do that. And what happens? When we do some of those things, we find out that they are fun and enjoyable. Like dancing. You like dancing? Wasn't that forbidden by some Christians? I wonder if it still is? Or, has their views changed?

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
One should be brought to understand the "Scriptures" which are the underlying topic of discussion.

Not "one" YOU should be brought to understand them.

Does it bother you that you could be embarrassing good Christians everywhere?

We would like to debate genesis with someone who has a grip on the material

Should everyone accept your view of the Scriptural Genesis chapters one and two, there would be no debate.
It is because I have a better "grip"(than you) concerning the entire Scriptural references seen in the BIBLE and their relation to Genesis 1+2 that we are having this debate.

"Them"? It isn't the Scriptures that you desire I understand---but The IAP. And I do understand their admittance of a lack of very important Precise Details. Notice:

Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change,..."""
Why are you closing your eyes to that factual admission???

embarrassing good Christians

??? Outhouse, a "good Christian" according to your posted comments would be one who compromised the Principles of GOD for the machinations of unbelievers. They would be accepters of the Decrees and traditions made by mankind rather than obey the laws and principles given by GOD.
I don't believe that I am an embarrassment to GOD nor to honest believers and seekers of GOD'S Truth.

 

[outhouse]

This is viewed a truth for most of the educated world, theist included, and contains substantiated facts to back their position.

You don't have to like the truth, or be part of the majority.


IAP - IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution

We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

•In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
•Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
•Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
•Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.

 

[sojourner]

"good Christian" according to your posted comments would be one who compromised the Principles of GOD for the machinations of unbelievers. They would be accepters of the Decrees and traditions made by mankind rather than obey the laws and principles given by GOD.

Hold on, Cochise! There are PLENTY of good Christians who live in the real world of proven scientific theory, and who accept the mythic nature of the Genesis creation accounts.

 

[sincerly]

The "elitism" is those who the Creator GOD declared would be in HIS Kingdom.

...Aaaand, that would be... all of us. Christ didn't come into the world to condemn the world, but so that we all might be saved...

That was your paraphrase of John 3:17, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Now read the verse 18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And going back to vss.15-16, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. "

Those who are "condemned" will perish. That will include all those who are on that "broad way"--to destruction.

It was open for ALL, but many decided that it wasn't worth foregoing their will to submit to the Father's WILL.

Nope. "...every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..."

Is every knee bowing and every tongue confessing since The death/resurrection of Jesus Christ?? No! They "should", but the reality will not be until All the wicked are gathered at the Throne for that executing of the "rewards earned". And theirs will be the "Death" which was made known before the "fruit was eaten."---NOT "eternal life"--in GOD'S Kingdom.

It is with "piety"/"dedicated reverence" that one has that "deep spiritual living" to be a part of that "Remnant" who choose to remain Obedient and faithful while others are arrogantly denying GOD'S Principles for the Traditions and decrees made by mankind.

That's not what God said when God said "I don't want your sacrifices." That's not what Jesus taught the Pharisees when he called them hypocrites, standing on the street corners and praying loudly.

However, those Scribes an Pharisees were by their teachings keeping some out of the Kingdom and refusing to go in themselves.

It was because those who Isaiah 1+ was addressing was a sick and sinful nation that the "sacrifices were without meaning". GOD wanted the "piety/dedicated reverence" which didn't require a sacrifice--other than by the tongue in praise and thanksgiving.

One should be brought to understand the "Scriptures" which are the underlying topic of discussion. So where have you determined to cast your 100%?

Yeah, but that's not even close to what you actually said, to wit:

So where have you determined to cast your 100%?

BUSTED!

Yes, your answers are.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerely=3851982
The Scriptures do not compromise with evil.

Do Hindu Scriptures compromise with evil? Do Buddhist? Do Zoroastrian? Does the Koran compromise with evil? Most, if not all, religions don't compromise with evil. They give an explanation of why we're here and where we're going and a road map on how to get there.

1kings 9:6," But 'if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: "

CG D, Jesus reaffirmed the fact that one can not serve two masters. Those beliefs are contrary to the things GOD said were for a correct relationship to HIM and one's fellow man. Totally? No! From the Tower of Babel all mankind carried with them a true knowledge of the principles and characteristics of GOD.
Then each group began to corrupt the truth--and made other "gods".
1 Kings 9:6-7, "But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:" Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:"

CG D, As Jesus told the doubting Scribes, Pharisees and Jewish leaders:
John 5:44-47, "How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

You have been shown the Scriptures/History of truths and right relationships and the rebellious actions of those who were called and chosen to be a light to the nations; also, the loving-kindness in Mercy of a forgiving GOD and you still believe it all a myth. So be it. That is your posted scriptural witness---to doubt.

God made it all as stated in those initial verses of the Scriptures---and rebellion is the action of most human beings. (as attested to by the daily news.)

 

[sojourner]

That was your paraphrase of John 3:17, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Now read the verse 18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And going back to vss.15-16, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. "

That's right. BUT, you're conveniently omitting John's intended audience and, hence, the thrust of the teaching.

This gospel was written for that community of the blessed disciple. This was a community who felt a particular affinity and connection with Jesus. This message wasn't intended as either a prophecy or as a warning, because it was written for those who were already believers. So, we have to ask why the statement about condemnation was included. The logical answer hinges on the first statement in verses 16 and 17. If God loved -- not just them, the beloved, but the whole world, and if the Jesus event didn't happen to condemn, but to save the world, then it was up to them -- the beloved ones -- to spread the good news to that world. Since the prevailing thought was that the parousia was imminent, the message created a sense of urgency in that beloved community to do that work NOW. The gospel assumes that the hearers would be believers, and it further assumes that, in the end, the world would come to belief -- if the beloved disciples did their part.

Pair that with all of the other overwhelming instances in the biblical record of God finding favor with the unfavorable and the messages of hope that, in the end, the whole world will return to God, and I think we have a pretty strong case against the sort of pietistic entitlement you appear to advocate.

Is every knee bowing and every tongue confessing since The death/resurrection of Jesus Christ?? No! They "should", but the reality will not be until All the wicked are gathered at the Throne for that executing of the "rewards earned". And theirs will be the "Death" which was made known before the "fruit was eaten."---NOT "eternal life"--in GOD'S Kingdom.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet. We're mortal, and God's got until eternity for us all to return. Remember, the shepherd searches for the lost sheep -- not until he gets tired; not until "time's up," not until they pass from this mortal life, but until they are found.

However, those Scribes an Pharisees were by their teachings keeping some out of the Kingdom

Uh huh. And that's precisely what you're doing by deciding whom God accepts and whom God does not.

It was because those who Isaiah 1+ was addressing was a sick and sinful nation that the "sacrifices were without meaning". GOD wanted the "piety/dedicated reverence" which didn't require a sacrifice--other than by the tongue in praise and thanksgiving.

I don't notice a whole lot of happy happy joy joy in your posts here. I do note a lot of meaningless judgment.

Yes, your answers are.

Lamest excuse for the jejune "I know you are, but what am I" retort I think I've ever seen. Epic. Fail. for you.

 

[sincerly]

"good Christian" according to your posted comments would be one who compromised the Principles of GOD for the machinations of unbelievers. They would be accepters of the Decrees and traditions made by mankind rather than obey the laws and principles given by GOD.

Hold on, Cochise! There are PLENTY of good Christians who live in the real world of proven scientific theory, and who accept the mythic nature of the Genesis creation accounts.

2Thess.2:10-12, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. "

 

[sojourner]

2Thess.2:10-12, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. "

Mkay...


What, precisely, is the lie? Because evolution is a proven theory. It seems as though, if a great lie there be, it be that some poor saps still believe that Genesis 2 is a literal, scientifically viable account of creation.