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Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

ecco

Veteran Member
You go into how my math is such that a "ten year old" knows better yet here we are looking at a pyramid standing perfectly straight, fully able to measure its area. Where is that curvature? Where is it leaning in the sand? Oh right, nowhere.


Golly! You are right! There is no leaning in the sand.

The curvature of the earth is ~8" per mile.
The length of the base of the largest pyramid in Egypt is ~756 feet (14% of one mile).
So the curvature "under" the pyramid would be 8" x 14% or 1.12"

I guess the only logical conclusion is that the smart Egyptians put a little more sand under on side than the other.


To bolster your nonsense you post a picture that is ridiculously out of proportion.

G0X7VVU.png



But, when you're a wooster, that's the kind of nonsense you have to try to push.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
No calculation anywhere asks us to calculate for this ever. But yeah, insult me by calling my math something a 10-year-old can do. So now it's time to insult you. You see, not only a ten-year-old but a half-blind idiot would see that there is now trigonometry in my basic measure of geometry. That such math should be a fact of life that Pythagoras would be scrupulous to remind all of his students that they have to perform all such measurements using an angle below where they stand. Is this reasonable? Is this sane? No, it's stupid.

Your entire post is incoherent.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
So is this.

flat-earth-memes-213-11.jpg


Any object at 180 degrees from its original position must account for change of position. Twelve noon should be like midnight during half the year. This is not somewhere like the North Pole, this would be in the Midwest or even the equator. If you believe this, I've still got orders on this 411 scam, you too can have your own Nigerian princess. This btw, would be despite constant rotation. But wait, we can add ANOTHER unnecessary displacement to our math. They explain this away by adding a number (I believe it is .982) to the equation based on (360 degrees / 365 days). There is no reason this number should work, but basically explains a certain percent of rotations as being nonstandard. You could watch sunrises and sunsets until you go blind and never see these, but you won't question this will you?

What are you rambling on about?
What does "Twelve noon should be like midnight during half the year" even mean?
What does "certain percent of rotations as being nonstandard" mean? Are you implying that some rotations take eg 24 1/2 hours and other rotations take 23 1/2 hours?
Who explains "this away by adding a number (I believe it is .982)"? Got names - got references?
I "could watch sunrises and sunsets until you go blind and never see" what?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Remember that Gleason map earlier? Well, let's match this up by angle.

hI12HTo.png


METAL-Sign-Flat-Earth-Map-Gleasons-New.jpg


Anywhere in the world, you have roughly 12 hours of daylight, aside from shorter or longer days. You notice something else? It's a perfect arc, like this.


As the sun curves past 180 degrees it can no longer be seen. Because it is around the horizon. We say "below" the horizon but that choice of words cannot be accurate even in rotating Earth model. Also note that the sky has a beforeglow and afterglow for these where light shifts horizontally despite there being no sun visible.

Now, look at the orbit model above. You should be noticing something. Mainly that it is generating a reverse arc?

I suppose you are trying to make a point with your those charts and videos, but I cannot figure out what it is supposed to be.
At least this part...
Anywhere in the world, you have roughly 12 hours of daylight, aside from shorter or longer days.​
...made sense.

Nevertheless, it is somewhat refreshing to have a real-life flat earther here again. The last one ran away a few years ago if I recall. Of course, it is possible that you are the same person with a gender change and a new avatar.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I feel the need to point out that it is your opinion that the "firmament" mentioned in Genesis is a reference to the atmosphere.

You cannot claim that the Genesis account is wrong or in error if all you did was discredit your own opinion about it.
That all depends on what they meant by the "firmament".

We can assume that they meant "atmosphere", but we cannot know it.

The Jewish word for firmament is רָקִ֖יעַ , which is transliterated to as rā·qî·a‘. The firmament is used in the KJV translation, which the literal meaning of firmament is “dome”, which some modern translations used (eg NRSV), while others preferred “expanse” (eg NASB).

To give you you some run downs on the Hebrew words and their respective transliterations, here are the followings:

“sky”, “heaven”: šā·mā·yim (שָׁמָ֑יִם), eg Genesis 1:8; “the heavens”: haš·šā·ma·yim (הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם), eg 1:1

earth: ’ā·reṣ (אָֽרֶץ); “the earth”: hā ’ā·reṣ (הָאָֽרֶץ)

waters: ma·yim (מַ֖יִם)​

Noticed that word singular heaven and the plural heavens, are virtually identical, except the “the” would either be hā (הָ) or haš (הַ) are often accompanied as prefixed to the noun(s).

To put the above in perspective I have included 3 translations, which used the words - firmament, dome or expanse:

“Genesis 1:6-8 KJV” said:
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

“Genesis 1:6-8 NSRV” said:
6 And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. 8 God called the dome Sky.

“Genesis 1:6-8 NASB” said:
6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse, and separated expanse from the waters expanse; and it was so. 7 God made the expanse, and separated expanse from the waters expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse heaven.

This indicate the firmament is the “sky”.

Does it explicitly referred to atmosphere?

“Explicitly”, no. But it does talk of “waters” (ma·yim) being above and the waters below, so the firmament is between these two waters.

Does that mean the waters exist above the sky?

I will get more about the waters later, but I want to talk first of the 4th and 6th days, so for the sake of completeness, I’ll include the same 3 translations:

“Genesis 1:14-17 KJV” said:
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
“Genesis 1:14-17 NRSV” said:
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth,
“Genesis 1:14-17 NASB” said:
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,

Now just focused what I highlighted in red.

In all cases, the god created the sun, moon and stars in the firmament or the sky (or heaven), and that would means these were created below “the waters above”.

How can these astronomical bodies be below “the waters above”?

And below, are the translations for the 5th day, but only what it say about the creation of birds or fowls.

“Genesis 1:20 KJV” said:
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
“Genesis 1:20 NSRV” said:
20 And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.”
“Genesis 1:20 NASB” said:
20 Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.

Just as the sun, moon and stars were created in the firmament or sky, so were the birds or fowls in the sky (firmament). And above the birds and sun and stars, were the waters.

If both birds and astronomical objects can be on the same plane, then you must considered that the author had no really understanding of how far away are the moon, sun and other stars.

Then there are matters the “waters above” the firmament (sky), which are not possible, if you have understanding of space and Earth.

According to the Flood myth, the waters became from below as the “great fountains” and from above when the heaven opened up and rain:

“Genesis 7:11 NSRV” said:
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

Is this flood water (7:11) the same waters from above the sky or firmament (1:7)?

If so, then Genesis 1:7-8 is wrong.

Our current knowledge of the chemical composition of the Earth’s atmosphere, most water vapors and the rain we get, are found in the Troposphere, the lowest layer of the above atmosphere, and only trace amount of water vapors can reach the next atmosphere - Stratosphere. Beyond the stratosphere, is the Mesosphere and higher (Thermosphere, Exosphere), completely no water vapors.

So what Genesis described of there being “waters above”, is nothing more than a complete fiction, and it is scientifically wrong.
 
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dad

Undefeated
Is that anything like: "Da Debil made me do it"?
No. That is like

Dan 12:10 ... and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Mt 11:25 - At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

In other words, it is impossible for science to come to a knowledge of the truth, period.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
No. That is like

Dan 12:10 ... and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Mt 11:25 - At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


You probably think that it's pretty clever of the writers to say things like that.

Only smart people will believe me and what I say. People who don't believe me and what I say are not smart.
It's amazing that you would be fooled so easily. Do you think that the writers of holy stories are going to write:

What I write may or may not be true. Some of it is obvious BS.
Of course not. But when they write "the wise shall understand", you puff out your chest and crow - I understand, because I am wise and because I am wise, I understand.


It's like the five-year-old rushing home from kindergarten to tell mommy he was smart enough to believe the teacher when she said children who take a nap will get a gold star.

Here ya go.

26366894-vector-gold-star.jpg
 

ecco

Veteran Member
In other words, it is impossible for science to come to a knowledge of the truth, period.



Than you for honestly stating your position.

It's not something that we haven't known all along, but it's refreshing to hear you admit it.
 

dad

Undefeated
Than you for honestly stating your position.

It's not something that we haven't known all along, but it's refreshing to hear you admit it.
I admit God was right all along, and that man cannot come to any knowledge of the truth using the stubbornly ignorant set of methods and criteria and beliefs that they do.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I admit God was right all along, and that man cannot come to any knowledge of the truth using the stubbornly ignorant set of methods and criteria and beliefs that they do.
Right. Your comments denigrating science stem from your fundamentalist religious beliefs, not from any real problems in science. The science is sound. It is only your deeply indoctrinated religious beliefs that prevent you from seeing that.

Thank God most religious people aren't as narrow-minded as you. If everyone was like you we would still be living on a flat planet managing the breeding of our sheep and goats with "rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree".
 

dad

Undefeated
Who recorded god saying anything? Your mythical Moses? Was Moses there when god created Adam & Eve?
How would I know whether God gave Mo a little spirit trip and let him see stuff that happened in the past?? We do know John took a trip to the future and saw and heard things to happen! So time travel is a piece of cake for us and God! Not for sillyscience though, of course.
 

dad

Undefeated
Right. Your comments denigrating science stem from your fundamentalist religious beliefs, not from any real problems in science. The science is sound. It is only your deeply indoctrinated religious beliefs that prevent you from seeing that.

Thank God most religious people aren't as narrow-minded as you. If everyone was like you we would still be living on a flat planet managing the breeding of our sheep and goats with "rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree".
The narrow minded religion of so called science hates other beliefs, and denigrates them. You are an example here.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
How would I know whether God gave Mo a little spirit trip and let him see stuff that happened in the past?? We do know John took a trip to the future and saw and heard things to happen! So time travel is a piece of cake for us and God! Not for sillyscience though, of course.

You keep making up these silly little stories to try to justify your beliefs. What's really sad is that no one, other than you, believes them. And that includes the other YEC Fundies on these forums.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The narrow minded religion of so called science hates other beliefs, and denigrates them. You are an example here.

Thank God most religious people aren't as narrow-minded as you. If everyone was like you we would still be living on a flat planet managing the breeding of our sheep and goats with "rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree".


You do know that most biologists in this country are Christians, don't you?
 

dad

Undefeated
You keep making up these silly little stories to try to justify your beliefs. What's really sad is that no one, other than you, believes them. And that includes the other YEC Fundies on these forums.
The fact that Scripture records John being carried away across time to the future is not made up or a story, it is Scripture. Since God talked directly to Moses, it is not reasonable to claim that some peek at the creation of Genesis may not have been given to him. You need to simply admit you do not know, which is very hard for evos I know.
 

dad

Undefeated
Thank God most religious people aren't as narrow-minded as you. If everyone was like you we would still be living on a flat planet managing the breeding of our sheep and goats with "rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree".
Actually is everyone got saved, we all would be in heaven already. So cut the hate speech and focus on debating substance. We get it that you seize up and cannot speak reasonably when it comes to other religions, but this is a public forum.

You do know that most biologists in this country are Christians, don't you?

So that means God lied about creation??
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The fact that Scripture records John being carried away across time to the future is not made up or a story, it is Scripture. Since God talked directly to Moses, it is not reasonable to claim that some peek at the creation of Genesis may not have been given to him. You need to simply admit you do not know, which is very hard for evos I know.
By that logic you or him doesn't know if Krishna or Thor was real either. But it's reasonable to believe they were fiction. Believers can say it's real all day but it's not supported by scholars.

"Moses (/ˈmoʊzɪz, -zɪs/)[2][Note 1] was a prophet according to the teachings of the Abrahamic religions. Scholarly consensus sees Moses as a legendary figure and not a historical person"
Moses - Wikipedia

Can you give an example of some scientists hating other beliefs and denigrating them?
Just because someone doesn't believe something that isn't hating and denigrating?

Ecco doesn't think god lied about creation he believes they are writings made by men, same as any other religious scripture. And the men did not yet understand biology and other sciences. While you may disagree that seems fairly easy to comprehend?
 
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