Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[JesusKnowsYou]

The Jewish word for firmament is רָקִ֖יעַ , which is transliterated to as rā·qî·a‘. The firmament is used in the KJV translation, which the literal meaning of firmament is “dome”, which some modern translations used (eg NRSV), while others preferred “expanse” (eg NASB).

To give you you some run downs on the Hebrew words and their respective transliterations, here are the followings:

“sky”, “heaven”: šā·mā·yim (שָׁמָ֑יִם), eg Genesis 1:8; “the heavens”: haš·šā·ma·yim (הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם), eg 1:1

earth: ’ā·reṣ (אָֽרֶץ); “the earth”: hā ’ā·reṣ (הָאָֽרֶץ)

waters: ma·yim (מַ֖יִם)​

Noticed that word singular heaven and the plural heavens, are virtually identical, except the “the” would either be hā (הָ) or haš (הַ) are often accompanied as prefixed to the noun(s).

To put the above in perspective I have included 3 translations, which used the words - firmament, dome or expanse:







This indicate the firmament is the “sky”.

Does it explicitly referred to atmosphere?

“Explicitly”, no. But it does talk of “waters” (ma·yim) being above and the waters below, so the firmament is between these two waters.

Does that mean the waters exist above the sky?

I will get more about the waters later, but I want to talk first of the 4th and 6th days, so for the sake of completeness, I’ll include the same 3 translations:





Now just focused what I highlighted in red.

In all cases, the god created the sun, moon and stars in the firmament or the sky (or heaven), and that would means these were created below “the waters above”.

How can these astronomical bodies be below “the waters above”?

And below, are the translations for the 5th day, but only what it say about the creation of birds or fowls.





Just as the sun, moon and stars were created in the firmament or sky, so were the birds or fowls in the sky (firmament). And above the birds and sun and stars, were the waters.

If both birds and astronomical objects can be on the same plane, then you must considered that the author had no really understanding of how far away are the moon, sun and other stars.

Then there are matters the “waters above” the firmament (sky), which are not possible, if you have understanding of space and Earth.

According to the Flood myth, the waters became from below as the “great fountains” and from above when the heaven opened up and rain:



Is this flood water (7:11) the same waters from above the sky or firmament (1:7)?

If so, then Genesis 1:7-8 is wrong.

Our current knowledge of the chemical composition of the Earth’s atmosphere, most water vapors and the rain we get, are found in the Troposphere, the lowest layer of the above atmosphere, and only trace amount of water vapors can reach the next atmosphere - Stratosphere. Beyond the stratosphere, is the Mesosphere and higher (Thermosphere, Exosphere), completely no water vapors.

So what Genesis described of there being “waters above”, is nothing more than a complete fiction, and it is scientifically wrong.

Why do you assume that the waters described as "above the firmament" remained there until the time of the Flood?

The Sun, Moon, stars and fowls of the air can be seen in the sky. What does the distance of these things from the observer change about that fact?

I believe you are not only being overly critical, but you continue to hold the Book of Genesis accountable for your personal interpretation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't believe it is silly to have a bias considering that everyone has one.

I think it's silly to try and fault someone for having bias or pretending that you yourself do not have it.

I believe that Adam and Eve were real people for many reasons, including among them the fact that the scriptures describe them as such.

However, I don't see where I mentioned my beliefs concerning Adam and Eve in my latest post.

Where in my last post do you believe I displayed a bias, exactly?

This is simply your opinion/interpretation of the Genesis account, which you are entitled to, but having it does not give you or anyone the authority to claim that the Genesis account, or any other book claiming to be scripture, was in error.

No, this is you claiming that your false interpretation of my answer is not an answer.

The scriptures claim that the faithful can come to know the truth through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

You do not have to believe it, but that doesn't change what the scriptures teach.

Who decides what ideas have worth?

The scriptures claim that the faithful can come to know the truth through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I'd be interested in seeing you try to explain this conclusion.

Unless someone can prove the truth of their belief, without a shadow of any doubt, then they are wrong?

There is no need to "try again" because I have already given you my answer.

I am completely confident in the Holy Spirit's willingness and ability to guide me throughout my life.

it is always rude to excessively break up a post. Care to try again? You could bring up your claims one at a time if necessary.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why do you assume that the waters described as "above the firmament" remained there until the time of the Flood?

The Sun, Moon, stars and fowls of the air can be seen in the sky. What does the distance of these things from the observer change about that fact?

I believe you are not only being overly critical, but you continue to hold the Book of Genesis accountable for your personal interpretation.

There was no Flood. An absence of evidence can be evidence of absence. The Flood myth is one such case.

 

[gnostic]

The Sun, Moon, stars and fowls of the air can be seen in the sky. What does the distance of these things from the observer change about that fact?

Since when there are “waters” above the sun, moon and stars?

The author(s) of Genesis make the assumptions to describe the “sky” or “heaven(s)” (šā·mā·yim, שָׁמָ֑יִם) as the “dome”, which is sort of like upside down “bowl”, hence a “firmament” (rā·qî·a‘, רָקִ֖יעַ), and everything are within in that “dome”, birds, sun, moon and stars.

So you are picturing and saying the waters BEYOND THE STARS that we can see without any binoculars or telescopes, can rain down on the Earth and caused the Genesis Flood?

Do you not realize that so unrealistic it is?

Oh, “distance” matters a lot, JesusKnowsYou.

The closest star is Proxima Centauri is about 4.24 light-years away. The most distanced spacecraft that NASA had sent is Voyager 1 in 1977 (36 years now), and it hasn’t even come to travelling one-quarter that distance.

So how do you expect waters travel from the most distance star that we see (without telescope), eg V762 Cas (16,306 light-years)?

Waters would require much more mass to travel such distance, because of the energy requirements need to cover such distance, it is just not possible.

The only way waters can travel beyond V762 Cas star in matter of instant, is by magic.

You would have to be child to think such magic is possible.

And the ancient authors of Genesis would have no more knowledge about the sky, stars, sun and moon than any pre-school child of today.

And, beside all that, the Flood described in Genesis as covering mountains, including Mount Ararat, never happened.

The Genesis Flood, as @sooda have already pointed out, is based on real river flood that occurred back 4900 years ago (2900 BCE) at the Euphrates basin.

This river flood led to the Sumerian story of Ziusudra (), the original hero of the Deluge, composed during the 3rd dynasty of Ur (a city that Abraham originally came from), c 2112 - c 2004 BCE.

Sources: clay tablets include the Eridu Genesis, and Ziusudra and the Deluge were briefly alluded to in poem Death of Bilgames (Bilgames is Sumerian name for Gilgamesh).

The Eridu Genesis inspired Akkadian (Babylonian/Assyrian) versions, like the Old Babylonian Epic of Atrahasis and the Epic of Gilgamesh, where Ziusudra was renamed as Atrahasis or Utnapishtim (the name used in Epic of Gilgamesh). The Epic of Gilgamesh was so popular in the Middle Babylonian period that fragments of tablets were found in the Canaanite palace in Megiddo, dated to c 1400 BCE.

But Genesis version of the Flood was composed around 7th century BCE, along with other books Exodus, Samuel, Kings, Job, etc, most likely during the reign of Josiah.

We know that the Mesopotamian myths had inspired Genesis Flood, because Ziusudra/Atrahasis/Utnapishtim had build a vessel to save his family and some animals, sent some birds to find lands, and offered sacrifice to the gods which the scents of sacrifice reached the gods, just like that found in Genesis 8.

But the difference between Ziusudra/Atrahasis versions and that of Noah’s, is the Sumerian/Old Babylonian versions say it only rained for 7 days, while exaggerated it to 40 days, and Atrahasis only described river flood, while Noah’s version covered the whole earth including high mountains.

It is more likely that Noah’s version was inspired by the older Utnapishtim’s version, which differed slightly to Atrahasis’, (Utnapishtim’s) saying it was sea flood instead of river flood, and when Noah’s story distorted exaggerated to global flood, covering mountains.

 

[sooda]

Since when there are “waters” above the sun, moon and stars?

The author(s) of Genesis make the assumptions to describe the “sky” or “heaven(s)” (šā·mā·yim, שָׁמָ֑יִם) as the “dome”, which is sort of like upside down “bowl”, hence a “firmament” (rā·qî·a‘, רָקִ֖יעַ), and everything are within in that “dome”, birds, sun, moon and stars.

So you are picturing and saying the waters BEYOND THE STARS that we can see without any binoculars or telescopes, can rain down on the Earth and caused the Genesis Flood?

Do you not realize that so unrealistic it is?

Oh, “distance” matters a lot, JesusKnowsYou.

The closest star is Proxima Centauri is about 4.24 light-years away. The most distanced spacecraft that NASA had sent is Voyager 1 in 1977 (36 years now), and it hasn’t even come to travelling one-quarter that distance.

So how do you expect waters travel from the most distance star that we see (without telescope), eg V762 Cas (16,306 light-years)?

Waters would require much more mass to travel such distance, because of the energy requirements need to cover such distance, it is just not possible.

The only way waters can travel beyond V762 Cas star in matter of instant, is by magic.

You would have to be child to think such magic is possible.

And the ancient authors of Genesis would have no more knowledge about the sky, stars, sun and moon than any pre-school child of today.

And, beside all that, the Flood described in Genesis as covering mountains, including Mount Ararat, never happened.

The Genesis Flood, as @sooda have already pointed out, is based on real river flood that occurred back 4900 years ago (2900 BCE) at the Euphrates basin.

This river flood led to the Sumerian story of Ziusudra (), the original hero of the Deluge, composed during the 3rd dynasty of Ur (a city that Abraham originally came from), c 2112 - c 2004 BCE.

Sources: clay tablets include the Eridu Genesis, and Ziusudra and the Deluge were briefly alluded to in poem Death of Bilgames (Bilgames is Sumerian name for Gilgamesh).

The Eridu Genesis inspired Akkadian (Babylonian/Assyrian) versions, like the Old Babylonian Epic of Atrahasis and the Epic of Gilgamesh, where Ziusudra was renamed as Atrahasis or Utnapishtim (the name used in Epic of Gilgamesh). The Epic of Gilgamesh was so popular in the Middle Babylonian period that fragments of tablets were found in the Canaanite palace in Megiddo, dated to c 1400 BCE.

But Genesis version of the Flood was composed around 7th century BCE, along with other books Exodus, Samuel, Kings, Job, etc, most likely during the reign of Josiah.

We know that the Mesopotamian myths had inspired Genesis Flood, because Ziusudra/Atrahasis/Utnapishtim had build a vessel to save his family and some animals, sent some birds to find lands, and offered sacrifice to the gods which the scents of sacrifice reached the gods, just like that found in Genesis 8.

But the difference between Ziusudra/Atrahasis versions and that of Noah’s, is the Sumerian/Old Babylonian versions say it only rained for 7 days, while exaggerated it to 40 days, and Atrahasis only described river flood, while Noah’s version covered the whole earth including high mountains.

It is more likely that Noah’s version was inspired by the older Utnapishtim’s version, which differed slightly to Atrahasis’, (Utnapishtim’s) saying it was sea flood instead of river flood, and when Noah’s story distorted exaggerated to global flood, covering mountains.

Covering mountains is a stretch... LOL.. The Euphrates river basin is 30 feet above sea level in the north and descends to sea level south of Basra.

 

[dad]

Exactly.

He/she was claiming that the Genesis account was incorrect because he/she interpreted "firmament" as "atmosphere" and that the stars were not in the atmosphere.

That's what led me to say that all that gnostic did was discredit his/her own interpretation, not the Genesis account.

And right you were.

 

[sooda]

And right you were.

In the earlier version of the garden of Eden it was a garden for the "gods', and the humans were the gardeners.

 

[dad]

In the earlier version of the garden of Eden it was a garden for the "gods', and the humans were the gardeners.

There is no earlier version. Heathen myths were partly based on Noah and told by people like Abraham, who was contemporary with, and some say spent some time with Noah.

 

[gnostic]

There is no earlier version. Heathen myths were partly based on Noah and told by people like Abraham, who was contemporary with, and some say spent some time with Noah.

Except that the Sumerian oral tradition and writing predated the writing of Genesis by some 1400 years.

There are no written records of Genesis or Exodus in the 2nd millennium bce (2000-1000 bce).

 

[sooda]

There is no earlier version. Heathen myths were partly based on Noah and told by people like Abraham, who was contemporary with, and some say spent some time with Noah.

Of course there are earlier versions of the Noah story... by a thousand years or more. Look to your education, pops.

Abraham was a literary device.

 

[sooda]

There is no earlier version. Heathen myths were partly based on Noah and told by people like Abraham, who was contemporary with, and some say spent some time with Noah.

Of course there are earlier versions of the Noah story... by a thousand years or more. Look to your education, pops.

Abraham was a literary device.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There is no earlier version. Heathen myths were partly based on Noah and told by people like Abraham, who was contemporary with, and some say spent some time with Noah.

You have that backwards. Since the Sumerian myths are older it is quite clear that the Hebrews copied their myths from them.

Why are you afraid to learn how we know that the Myth of the Bible never happened?

All of your excuses amount to "God lied."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Since the Sumerian myths are older it is quite clear that the Hebrews copied their myths from them.

On the contrary, I believe that the Flood Myth as found in Genesis served as a polemic against the ANE flood narrative from the perspective of ethical monotheism.

 

[Subduction Zone]

On the contrary, I believe that the Flood Myth as found in Genesis served as a polemic against the ANE flood narrative from the perspective of ethical monotheism.

Would you care to post that in English? If you are claiming that it is useful as a morality tale then I agree with you on that. In fact Genesis works as a series of morality tales. It does not work literally.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Would you care to post that in English?

I'm sorry to hear that you need it dumbed down.

If you are claiming that it is useful as a morality tale then I agree with you on that.

I am claiming that it served primarily as a polemic against the Ancient Near East Weltanschauung reflected in the Gilgamesh story.

In fact Genesis works as a series of morality tales. It does not work literally.

I'm not a literalist. I view Torah as a human product.

 

[gnostic]

In the earlier version of the garden of Eden it was a garden for the "gods', and the humans were the gardeners.

In the Epic of Atrahasis, the lesser gods served the greater gods, building cities and temples, digging irrigation and canals, until the hard manual labours, caused the lesser gods to go on strike. To solve their problems the greater gods created humans to do all these manual labour.

Eventually Elill (Sumerian Enlil) got tired of listening the chatters and noises from humans, destroy them with famine, droughts and pestilence, before resorting to the Flood. The god of wisdom and of the sea, Ea (Enki) repeatedly foiled each of Elill's attempts to destroy mankind.

Instead of just doing the gardening, the Sumerian/Akkadian versions did all sorts of manual labour.

 

[dad]

Except that the Sumerian oral tradition and writing predated the writing of Genesis by some 1400 years.

There are no written records of Genesis or Exodus in the 2nd millennium bce (2000-1000 bce).

Except your dates are a joke. Dare you to support em! Ha.

 

[dad]

You have that backwards. Since the Sumerian myths are older it is quite clear that the Hebrews copied their myths from them.

Why are you afraid to learn how we know that the Myth of the Bible never happened?

All of your excuses amount to "God lied."

Sumer was post flood. That means they are not older. It goes a bit like this..

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

it is always rude to excessively break up a post. Care to try again? You could bring up your claims one at a time if necessary.

You like to make up any excuse to not respond to my posts.

I disagree with your claim that I "excessively" broke up your post or that it would be rude of me to do so. There is no forum rule against the practice so you are SOL.

You have my post. You can choose to not respond to it if you want, but don't try to blame me for your inability or unwillingness to defend your points.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

There was no Flood. An absence of evidence can be evidence of absence. The Flood myth is one such case.

We are talking about the interpretation of the Genesis narrative not it's historical validity.

Grow up.