Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[sooda]

So fess up then are you trying to use the list for dates (for the third time) yes or no?

The Sumerian King List records the lengths of reigns of the kings of Sumer. The initial section deals with kings before the Flood and is significantly different from the rest. When the kingdom durations of the antediluvian section are expressed in an early sexagesimal numerical system, all durations except two are expressed as multiples of 602. A simple tally of the ciphers used yields six 10x602 signs, six 602 signs and six 60 signs.

The lives of the biblical patriarchs, however, have a precision of one year. If Adam and Noah are not included (as in the King List), and the lives of the patriarchs are similarly rounded to two digits, the sum of the lives has six 103 signs, six 102 signs and six 10 signs. In addition, if the number representing the sum of the ages was wrongly assumed as having been written in the sexagesimal system, the two totals become numerically equivalent.

It is suggested that the Sumerian scribe that composed the original antediluvian list had available a document (possibly a clay tablet) containing numerical information on the ages of eight of the patriarchs similar to that of the Genesis record and that he mistakenly interpreted it as being written in the sexagesimal system.

The Antediluvian Patriarchs and the Sumerian King List

 

[sooda]

Support the dates show us how they come to be claimed exactly. That is your quest. No matter how hopeless. Of course folks in the area after the flood started to farm and irrigate. This is news??


In other words you vaguely recall dates you read somewhere. You need to do better you need to support them. After the flood in my estimation the continents were together still. So the Indus people were also there at Babel.

If you look at the ma below you can even see aprox where it was!

Look at the map above!
Quit tossing around dates like a banjee that you cannot begin to support!
Pre dating that was the actual tower of Babel from which others tried to make little copies as best they could! Your dates are wrong though. Also, the original site of Babel likely was shoved under the earth or destroyed after the time of Babel in the great plate moves that separated continents also!

I will save my laugh for after you try to support them!

Actually there is plenty!
In the Days of Peleg | Answers in Genesis

LOLOL.. There is NO evidence for a global flood.. Too many ancient civilizations were NEVER flooded.

 

[dad]

The Sumerian King List records the lengths of reigns of the kings of Sumer. The initial section deals with kings before the Flood and is significantly different from the rest. When the kingdom durations of the antediluvian section are expressed in an early sexagesimal numerical system, all durations except two are expressed as multiples of 602. A simple tally of the ciphers used yields six 10x602 signs, six 602 signs and six 60 signs.

The lives of the biblical patriarchs, however, have a precision of one year. If Adam and Noah are not included (as in the King List), and the lives of the patriarchs are similarly rounded to two digits, the sum of the lives has six 103 signs, six 102 signs and six 10 signs. In addition, if the number representing the sum of the ages was wrongly assumed as having been written in the sexagesimal system, the two totals become numerically equivalent.

It is suggested that the Sumerian scribe that composed the original antediluvian list had available a document (possibly a clay tablet) containing numerical information on the ages of eight of the patriarchs similar to that of the Genesis record and that he mistakenly interpreted it as being written in the sexagesimal system.

The Antediluvian Patriarchs and the Sumerian King List

So are you or are you not claiming the list for dating? Be honest.

 

[dad]

LOLOL.. There is NO evidence for a global flood.. Too many ancient civilizations were NEVER flooded.

? Why would post flood civilization be flooded??

 

[sooda]

? Why would post flood civilization be flooded??

Oldest Sites in the World -- National Geographic
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/top-10/oldest-sites-world

• • Burrup Peninsula, Australia. Murujuga, also known by the modern name Burrup Peninsula, in …
  • Erbil Citadel, Kurdistan, Iraq. Among the oldest continually inhabited areas on Earth, this walled …
  • Göbekli Tepe, Turkey. Built beginning in the tenth millennium B.C., Göbekli Tepe seems a re …
  • Cave of El Castillo, Spain. Some of the oldest known paintings in the world are in the Cave of the …

 

[dad]

Oldest Sites in the World -- National Geographic
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/top-10/oldest-sites-world

• • Burrup Peninsula, Australia. Murujuga, also known by the modern name Burrup Peninsula, in …
  • Erbil Citadel, Kurdistan, Iraq. Among the oldest continually inhabited areas on Earth, this walled …
  • Göbekli Tepe, Turkey. Built beginning in the tenth millennium B.C., Göbekli Tepe seems a re …
  • Cave of El Castillo, Spain. Some of the oldest known paintings in the world are in the Cave of the …

Great, seems like you are trying to lead up to a point. Now pick any of your examples and support the dates. Remember, that if any basis for dates rests on a belief in a same nature in the past, you must then support that claim forst and foremost. Otherwise all your so called dates remain belief based dreaming.

 

[sooda]

Great, seems like you are trying to lead up to a point. Now pick any of your examples and support the dates. Remember, that if any basis for dates rests on a belief in a same nature in the past, you must then support that claim forst and foremost. Otherwise all your so called dates remain belief based dreaming.

I don't have to do that.. Archaeologists already have dated these structures. China and Egypt had NO global flood..

Geologists have never found a flood footprint..

The story is about flooding in the Euphrates River Basin.

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple? | History ...
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gobekli-tepe-the-worlds-first-temple-83613665
The megaliths predate Stonehenge by some 6,000 years. The place is called Gobekli Tepe, and Schmidt, a German archaeologist who has been working here more than a decade, is convinced it's the site of the world's oldest temple.

 

[joelr]

What the fact was was that it was recorded in Scripture and not something I made up.

Everyone understands you are not making stuff up. But you believe scripture is actually words from a god and other people believe it was words written by people.
So he doesn't think god is a liar he thinks the men who wrote scripture just did not know the correct science to be accurate.

It is science...not scientists. The parts of science that claim to deal in origins put out stories that are very opposed to Scripture, obviously.

So how is that hating or denigrating? They make theories then test them and the ones that survive years of scrutiny and testing become science. If it doesn't support what it says in any religion how is that hate or denigration?

Many things written in scripture have been used as science in the past such as "the "firmament" is claimed to be a solid "roof" over the world."
Biblical scientific errors - RationalWiki

but religion just moves on and forgets about the error. They don't deny that the Earth is round or not at the center of the universe and they especially don't say "oh no, science hates and denigrates us?"

True. That someone may just be ignorant or misinformed or etc. Here we are dealing with systematic claims of so called science. Also on this forum, we have seen posters denigrating the bible and creation and believers.

Science isn't ignorant or misinformed because it doesn't base it's theories on religions?
Would you want to open a science book and have it say "because the Hindu scripture says x science believes it.."
No, you want science to base results on testing theories. Please don't lie and say this isn't true. If you really believed that you would never use any modern medical technology and medicine because it's all a result of scientific procedure. You would just use prayer only. I'm pretty sure when you need a life saving surgery or medicine you will then rely tested science which has a good rate of success.
If you just used scripture as science rather than experiments we would not have cars, computers or anything else you probable enjoy. So why cherry pick science and accept stuff that doesn't conflict with a religious text but then hate on stuff that does?
Science simply uses the same method for all discoveries.
I bet you're ok with most modern technology, all a result of science.

Why would you want to force your beliefs on everyone and not allow real world experiments to judge what is accurate?

As far as people on the forum hating on religion, that isn't science and I do not care.
But again, it's a forum, are you against freedom of religion? Who cares if someone doesn't have the same beliefs as you.
Again, where is science hating or denigrating religion? Explain how having a theory then testing it over and over with multiple teams over years and years, having the theory shown correct or to be the most accurate theory is hating?

It so happens that poster also routinely expresses anti bible/God views rather than addressing issues here. I do not really care what he or anyone else believes. The issue is offering beliefs as science!

It isn't an issue in science. There are theories and they test them and that's it.
Evolution isn't mathematical like Newtonian gravity but it's not just beliefs.
You would have to be more specific,

Evolution - Wikipedia

which exact thing is just beliefs? All science is saying is this is the best theory, it never says it's just beliefs? Point out which aspect is just beliefs.

 

[joelr]

Great so show us the basis for the claimed dates! Ha.

Maybe find a fairy tale thread for your material.
There were lots of floods after the flood...and so??

The Abrahamic flood myth isn't even close to the first. It blantantly copies the Epic of Gilamesh which is older.


List of flood myths:
List of flood myths - Wikipedia


Genesis flood myth:
Genesis flood narrative - Wikipedia

"At one extreme are those who see it as a product of the Hellenistic period, in which case it cannot be earlier than the first decades of the 4th century BCE;[11] on the other hand the Yahwist source has been dated by others, notably John Van Seters, to the exilic pre-Persian period (the 6th century BCE), precisely because the primeval history contains so much Babylonian influence in the form of myth.[12]"

Sumerian flood myth:
Sumerian creation myth - Wikipedia


"The earliest record of a Sumerian creation myth, called The Eridu Genesis by historian Thorkild Jacobsen,[1] is found on a single fragmentary tablet excavated in Nippur by the Expedition of the University of Pennsylvania in 1893, and first recognized by Arno Poebel in 1912. It is written in the Sumerian language and dated to around 1600 BCE."

 

[sooda]

The Abrahamic flood myth isn't even close to the first. It blantantly copies the Epic of Gilamesh which is older.


List of flood myths:
List of flood myths - Wikipedia


Genesis flood myth:
Genesis flood narrative - Wikipedia

"At one extreme are those who see it as a product of the Hellenistic period, in which case it cannot be earlier than the first decades of the 4th century BCE;[11] on the other hand the Yahwist source has been dated by others, notably John Van Seters, to the exilic pre-Persian period (the 6th century BCE), precisely because the primeval history contains so much Babylonian influence in the form of myth.[12]"

Sumerian flood myth:
Sumerian creation myth - Wikipedia


"The earliest record of a Sumerian creation myth, called The Eridu Genesis by historian Thorkild Jacobsen,[1] is found on a single fragmentary tablet excavated in Nippur by the Expedition of the University of Pennsylvania in 1893, and first recognized by Arno Poebel in 1912. It is written in the Sumerian language and dated to around 1600 BCE."

The OT is borrowed from the civilizations around the Hebrews.. They borrowed earlier myths from Sumer and Egypt and the North Coast Canaanites. A good bit of Psalms was lifted from poetry that predates Genesis by a thousand years. See Ugarit tablets.

 

[dad]

I don't have to do that.. Archaeologists already have dated these structures. China and Egypt had NO global flood..

If you are unaware how they come up with dates or cannot support it, fine.

Geologists have never found a flood footprint..

KT layer?

The story is about flooding in the Euphrates River Basin.

No. The story is about all men on earth and all animals dying save those on board the ark.

Amazing how evos can neither defend the dating nor deal with it. They just keep spamming the dates like fairy tales.

 

[joelr]

Actually there is plenty!
In the Days of Peleg | Answers in Genesis

Larry Pierce?
The field of biblical historicity consists only of PhD historians who specialize in each different period.
Amateur authors often post crank history, including theories that Jesus was a creation of Rome in 300AD.
But this is made up stuff. Larry Pierce is also not part of scholarship.
When someone puts a paper forward in the field with new information it's first peer-reviewed by many other PhDs and if shown to be accurate over much scrutiny, may become accepted.

Everything in the Wiki is scholarship. Larry Pierce is not.
I'm sure you would be quick to dismiss the junk history about Jesus being a creation of Rome, and you should because it's crap. But you don't get to just quote amateurs when they happen to write something you agree with and run around showing everyone like it's now history. It isn't.

His footnotes are hilarious, he uses crank writers, old books and has to insert assumptions about races "treading water". What a disaster?

 

[sooda]

If you are unaware how they come up with dates or cannot support it, fine.

KT layer?
No. The story is about all men on earth and all animals dying save those on board the ark.

Amazing how evos can neither defend the dating nor deal with it. They just keep spamming the dates like fairy tales.

The Hebrews had no foundation stories etc until they were exiled in Babylon. During their exile they wrote Leviticus and part of Deuteronomy.. After the exile they wrote Genesis and Exodus. and those have been redacted and amended many times.

Scripture is didactic literature. Its not history or science..

Daniel is fairly typical.. It was written by a group of Jewish scholars in 167 BC like a "way back" trip thru history...

Christians don't have to reject education.

 

[dad]

Everyone understands you are not making stuff up. But you believe scripture is actually words from a god and other people believe it was words written by people.
So he doesn't think god is a liar he thinks the men who wrote scripture just did not know the correct science to be accurate.

Whether you believe cripture or not no one can say I made it up, if they are sound of mind.

So how is that hating or denigrating? They make theories then test them and the ones that survive years of scrutiny and testing become science. If it doesn't support what it says in any religion how is that hate or denigration?

I know how they make theories.

Many things written in scripture have been used as science in the past such as "the "firmament" is claimed to be a solid "roof" over the world."
Biblical scientific errors - RationalWiki

Old wives tale.

but religion just moves on and forgets about the error. They don't deny that the Earth is round or not at the center of the universe and they especially don't say "oh no, science hates and denigrates us?"

The bible says nothing of the sort.

Science isn't ignorant or misinformed because it doesn't base it's theories on religions?

No, the opposite actually, because it bases it on religion! They have beliefs that they base models of the past on that are not known, not observed not tested etc etc. Just belief.

No, you want science to base results on testing theories. Please don't lie and say this isn't true. If you really believed that you would never use any modern medical technology and medicine because it's all a result of scientific procedure.

If you join a conversation try to get some inkling of what is actually being said. I want science to stop basing things on belief only! As for medical tech and such, that has zero to do with creation, or space/firmament etc.

You would just use prayer only. I'm pretty sure when you need a life saving surgery or medicine you will then rely tested science which has a good rate of success.

Newsflash: real knowledge and sciencehas nothing to do with origin sciences and claims. Zero.

Science simply uses the same method for all discoveries.

Claims about where life came from or the universe are not discoveries, they are belief based models. Focus.

I bet you're ok with most modern technology, all a result of science.

Stop trying to associate origin so called science with actual science.

Why would you want to force your beliefs on everyone and not allow real world experiments to judge what is accurate?

There are no experiments that affect my beliefs. Get a grip man.

As far as people on the forum hating on religion, that isn't science and I do not care.

Hating is OK?

But again, it's a forum, are you against freedom of religion? Who cares if someone doesn't have the same beliefs as you.

The issue is beliefs that masquerade as science.

Again, where is science hating or denigrating religion?

Phony so called science puts out fables about origins that oppose Scripture.

It isn't an issue in science. There are theories and they test them and that's it.
Evolution isn't mathematical like Newtonian gravity but it's not just beliefs.
You would have to be more specific,

Easy to do. They believe in dates derived by faith alone (that nature was the same always on earth) They believe that only the nature we see was responsible for life on earth through the process of evolving. They believe that there was no creation, so explain all things ignoring it.

Evolution - Wikipedia

which exact thing is just beliefs?

The opening sentence in your link is an example.

"Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations.[1][2] These characteristics are the expressions of genes that are passed on from parent to offspring during reproduction."

This assumes that just because evolution involves reproduction today in this present nature, that it always did!


Then, later in your link we see this..

"Thus, in successive generations members of a population are more likely to be replaced by the progenies of parents with favourable characteristics that have enabled them to survive and reproduce in their respective environments."

When talking about early life on earth, they envision creatures that resulted from evolving continuing to evolve only. No created kinds there. No possibility is allowed that evolution came after the fact and after life was already here! In all ways evolution as far as the far past and origins go is just a belief. Nothing more.

 

[dad]

The Abrahamic flood myth isn't even close to the first. It blantantly copies the Epic of Gilamesh which is older.

Not true at all. The written copy may be older than copies of Scripture but that doesn't matter.

"At one extreme are those who see it as a product of the Hellenistic period, in which case it cannot be earlier than the first decades of the 4th century BCE;[11] on the other hand the Yahwist source has been dated by others, notably John Van Seters, to the exilic pre-Persian period (the 6th century BCE), precisely because the primeval history contains so much Babylonian influence in the form of myth.[12]"

Support the dates! I wait.

"The earliest record of a Sumerian creation myth, called The Eridu Genesis by historian Thorkild Jacobsen,[1] is found on a single fragmentary tablet excavated in Nippur by the Expedition of the University of Pennsylvania in 1893, and first recognized by Arno Poebel in 1912. It is written in the Sumerian language and dated to around 1600 BCE."

Sumer was post flood.

 

[dad]

Larry Pierce?
The field of biblical historicity consists only of PhD historians who specialize in each different period.
Amateur authors often post crank history, including theories that Jesus was a creation of Rome in 300AD.
But this is made up stuff. Larry Pierce is also not part of scholarship.
When someone puts a paper forward in the field with new information it's first peer-reviewed by many other PhDs and if shown to be accurate over much scrutiny, may become accepted.

Try dealing with what is said rather than pontificating about foolish so called higher education, that is truly clueless on the past.

But you don't get to just quote amateurs when they happen to write something you agree with and run around showing everyone like it's now history. It isn't.

If you think you are so smart then try dealing with the claims rather than insulting people who disagree with your mistaken ideas!

 

[dad]

The Hebrews had no foundation stories etc until they were exiled in Babylon.

What nonsense. You deny God spoke to them.

During their exile they wrote Leviticus and part of Deuteronomy.. After the exile they wrote Genesis and Exodus. and those have been redacted and amended many times.

There came a need for written stuff. God responded. Remember God spoke to Moses directly, so if you doubt Genesis, you are just doubting Him.

Scripture is didactic literature. Its not history or science..

Baloney. Jesus confirmed it was true and He had the generations recorded so we could know where He came from. The generations go back to Adam!

Daniel is fairly typical.. It was written by a group of Jewish scholars in 167 BC like a "way back" trip thru history...

Not true.

 

[sooda]

Not true at all. The written copy may be older than copies of Scripture but that doesn't matter.



Support the dates! I wait.

Sumer was post flood.

LOLOL.. there was NO "post flood".

 

[sooda]

What nonsense. You deny God spoke to them.


There came a need for written stuff. God responded. Remember God spoke to Moses directly, so if you doubt Genesis, you are just doubting Him.
Baloney. Jesus confirmed it was true and He had the generations recorded so we could know where He came from. The generations go back to Adam!
Not true.

Abraham and Moses are fictional characters.

The Bible stories are morality tales .. not history.

 

[dad]

LOLOL.. there was NO "post flood".

False.