Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[Subduction Zone]

You like to make up any excuse to not respond to my posts.

I disagree with your claim that I "excessively" broke up your post or that it would be rude of me to do so. There is no forum rule against the practice so you are SOL.

You have my post. You can choose to not respond to it if you want, but don't try to blame me for your inability or unwillingness to defend your points.

No, that is one of my pet peeves. When a post is broken up excessively it is rude. It is a almost always a form of lying.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We are talking about the interpretation of the Genesis narrative not it's historical validity.

Grow up.

Many Christians make the error of interpreting Genesis literally. You appeared to be one that made that sort of error. Look at the posts of dad for example.

EDIT: And look who needs to "grow up". You questioned when the Bible was obviously wrong and I mentioned the Flood. And then you posted this:

"Why do you assume that the waters described as "above the firmament" remained there until the time of the Flood?

Bolding mine. Nice way to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sumer was post flood. That means they are not older. It goes a bit like this..

Nope, backwards as usual. Unless you want to claim that God lied there was no Flood. You are the one that tries to use history. History tells us that the Sumerian myths are older than the Hebrew ones.

 

[sooda]

In the Epic of Atrahasis, the lesser gods served the greater gods, building cities and temples, digging irrigation and canals, until the hard manual labours, caused the lesser gods to go on strike. To solve their problems the greater gods created humans to do all these manual labour.

Eventually Elill (Sumerian Enlil) got tired of listening the chatters and noises from humans, destroy them with famine, droughts and pestilence, before resorting to the Flood.

The god of wisdom and of the sea, Ea (Enki) repeatedly foiled each of Elill's attempts to destroy mankind.

Instead of just doing the gardening, the Sumerian/Akkadian versions did all sorts of manual labour.

Thanks.. you explained the earlier myth well.. In the mythos God destroy the humans with the flood because they were noisy.

 

[sooda]

Sumer was post flood. That means they are not older. It goes a bit like this..

Nope. Sumer had developed writing, irrigation and sail boats by 3,000 BC.

Noah was a king of Sumer who sold beer, grain and livestock downriver circa 2900 BC.

Education helps. These floods built up the delta south of Basra and ancient people were smart enough to see that.

 

[ecco]

So, yes, provide substance to your religious claims, that you like to misname science.

"religious claims" that I "misname science"? What?

Oh, I see. You are trying to make the argument that I believe in science the way people blindly believe in religion. You do know that you are not the first person to try to make that silly argument. You do know this is not the first time you made that silly argument. But, that's all it is, a silly argument. Another silly argument that you make is that the entire world was flooded. Another silly argument that you make is that time was different "back then" and "out there".

The bottom line is that religion only needs blind faith. Blind faith requires belief in the Great Flood. Your blind faith requires belief that time magically changed. Science needs research. Scientific research has proven there was no flood.

Your lame attempt to conflate religion with science is laughable.

 

[ecco]

If God did or did not inspire/write through men you would be in no position to know. Save the misdirected venom.

Venom? I merely pointed out that relatively ignorant mortal men wrote the stories that were compiled into what you call scripture made up stories just like you make up stories to justify their stories.

That's not venom, that's indisputable fact. If you care to show evidence that God inspired the writings, then you need to provide evidence for that. If you can't, then you should admit that your belief is blind.

There was no Great Flood. Did God inspire the writers of Genesis to lie?

 

[ecco]

You want to believe the stories of bumpkin goat herders who thought they could set the spots on goats and sheep by having certain trees nearby when they were bred.

There we go again with ignorant hate speech.

How is it ignorant hate speech?

1. You do believe the Bible literally.
2. The Bible states that people thought they could set the spots on goats and sheep by having certain trees nearby when they were bred.

Those are two indisputable facts. Facts are not hate speech. If you are embarrassed by your beliefs, that is not my problem.

 

[dad]

Nope. Sumer had developed writing, irrigation and sail boats by 3,000 BC.

Great so show us the basis for the claimed dates! Ha.

Noah was a king of Sumer who sold beer, grain and livestock downriver circa 2900 BC.

Maybe find a fairy tale thread for your material.

Education helps. These floods built up the delta south of Basra and ancient people were smart enough to see that.

There were lots of floods after the flood...and so??

 

[dad]

"religious claims" that I "misname science"? What?

Belief based claims that form a set of ideas could be called religious. Science fits the bill.

Oh, I see. You are trying to make the argument that I believe in science the way people blindly believe in religion. You do know that you are not the first person to try to make that silly argument. You do know this is not the first time you made that silly argument. But, that's all it is, a silly argument. Another silly argument that you make is that the entire world was flooded. Another silly argument that you make is that time was different "back then" and "out there".

Denial...ZZzzz

The bottom line is that religion only needs blind faith.

Bingo, so origin sciences are religion by your standards also!

Blind faith requires belief in the Great Flood.

No. People can have faith in many things, a flood is not required for faith.

Your blind faith requires belief that time magically changed. Science needs research. Scientific research has proven there was no flood.

Apparently there is no use repeating that I never evened mentioned time changing on earth. You might be thinking about the laws of nature...but you will have to will have to articulate your own case.

 

[sooda]

Great so show us the basis for the claimed dates! Ha.

Maybe find a fairy tale thread for your material.
There were lots of floods after the flood...and so??

Yes.. There is a flood footprint (sediment) 150 miles wide and 350 miles to the south towards the Persian Gulf.

 

[sooda]

Great so show us the basis for the claimed dates! Ha.

Maybe find a fairy tale thread for your material.
There were lots of floods after the flood...and so??

The basis is the King's list found in ancient Sumer. Yes, of course there were many floods. This just happens to be the one memorialized in mythology.

Have you read Samuel Noah Kramer?

 

[dad]

Yes.. There is a flood footprint (sediment) 150 miles wide and 350 miles to the south towards the Persian Gulf.

Great, so what do you think or claim that print is all about or represents? Are is there any point at all here?

 

[dad]

The basis is the King's list found in ancient Sumer. Yes, of course there were many floods. This just happens to be the one memorialized in mythology.

Have you read Samuel Noah Kramer?

Wow!!! It seems you are actually trying to use the king list for dates!!!? Please confirm.

 

[sooda]

Wow!!! It seems you are actually trying to use the king list for dates!!!? Please confirm.

Do you have any education at all?

The Sumerian King List is an ancient manuscript originally recorded in the Sumerian language, listing kings of Sumer (ancient southern Iraq) from Sumerian and neighboring dynasties, their supposed reign lengths, and the locations of "official" kingship.
Sumerian King List
www.crystalinks.com/SumerianKingList.html

 

[dad]

Do you have any education at all?

The Sumerian King List is an ancient manuscript originally recorded in the Sumerian language, listing kings of Sumer (ancient southern Iraq) from Sumerian and neighboring dynasties, their supposed reign lengths, and the locations of "official" kingship.
Sumerian King List
www.crystalinks.com/SumerianKingList.html

Crystal links? Ha.

I am familiar with the list. Just answer the question are you trying to use that list for dates??

 

[sooda]

Crystal links? Ha.

I am familiar with the list. Just answer the question are you trying to use that list for dates??

You can also read History Begins at Sumer by Samuels.. He spent 50 years translating the cuneiform texts. It just never occurred to me that you read.

 

[gnostic]

Great so show us the basis for the claimed dates! Ha.

Irrigation did start early on the Euphrates and Tigris, and as early as 3000 BCE. And on the Nile, Egyptians also used irrigation to channeled waters to their crops.

But it my understanding that it was the farmers from the Indus Valley civilization started irrigation as early as 4000 BCE or even earlier. However, my knowledge on the Indian subcontinent is limited, so you may want to ask someone else who know more about India’s prehistory.

Anyway, the cities of Uruk (Erech), Ur, Eridu and Nineveh, all predated 3000 BCE.

Because Uruk was the largest city in the world during the 4th millennium BCE, it was known as the Uruk period (c 4000 - c 3100 BCE). Around 3200 BCE, a ziggurat was constructed in the Anu District of Uruk, with the White Temple on top of the ziggurat.

And the cuneiforms older than the Sumerian cuneiforms were found in Uruk in 3400 BCE, which archaeologists and anthropologists referred to as proto-Sumerian cuneiforms. Actual Sumerian cuneiforms originated in Jemdet Nasr, dated as early as 3100 BCE. Hence, the period (c 3100 - 2900 BCE) was named after this little town.

You can laugh at these dates, but you have no evidence to support anything in regarding to the (dates to) events in the Bible, particularly Genesis and Exodus. And the ages of the patriarchs in Genesis 5 and 8 (Noah) are terribly distorted and exaggerated.

 

[dad]

You can also read History Begins at Sumer by Samuels.. He spent 50 years translating the cuneiform texts. It just never occurred to me that you read.

So fess up then are you trying to use the list for dates (for the third time) yes or no?

 

[dad]

Irrigation did start early on the Euphrates and Tigris, and as early as 3000 BCE. And on the Nile, Egyptians also used irrigation to channeled waters to their crops.

Support the dates show us how they come to be claimed exactly. That is your quest. No matter how hopeless. Of course folks in the area after the flood started to farm and irrigate. This is news??

But it my understanding that it was the farmers from the Indus Valley civilization started irrigation as early as 4000 BCE or even earlier.

In other words you vaguely recall dates you read somewhere. You need to do better you need to support them. After the flood in my estimation the continents were together still. So the Indus people were also there at Babel.

If you look at the ma below you can even see aprox where it was!

However, my knowledge on the Indian subcontinent is limited, so you may want to ask someone else who know more about India’s prehistory.

Look at the map above!

Anyway, the cities of Uruk (Erech), Ur, Eridu and Nineveh, all predated 3000 BCE.

Quit tossing around dates like a banjee that you cannot begin to support!

Because Uruk was the largest city in the world during the 4th millennium BCE, it was known as the Uruk period (c 4000 - c 3100 BCE). Around 3200 BCE, a ziggurat was constructed in the Anu District of Uruk, with the White Temple on top of the ziggurat.

Pre dating that was the actual tower of Babel from which others tried to make little copies as best they could! Your dates are wrong though. Also, the original site of Babel likely was shoved under the earth or destroyed after the time of Babel in the great plate moves that separated continents also!

You can laugh at these dates,

I will save my laugh for after you try to support them!

but you have no evidence to support anything in regarding to the (dates to) events in the Bible, particularly Genesis and Exodus. And the ages of the patriarchs in Genesis 5 and 8 (Noah) are terribly distorted and exaggerated.

Actually there is plenty!
In the Days of Peleg | Answers in Genesis