Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[sooda]

Yet the Genesis account also claims that the waters only reached fifteen cubits high. That's roughly 23-26 feet.

You believe that was tall enough to cover all the mountains?

The Bible says 15 cubits above the mountains... but, there are no mountains at all in the Euphrates River Basin .. it pretty flat at about 30 feet above sea level .. becoming closer to sea level as you head south towards the delta.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

As it is ectraordinarily unlikely that you would agree that the flood is a myth your q is moot.

Why would you assume this?

I already told you that my Church does not have a stance on this issue because we do not believe it is critical to our doctrine and teachings.

All I have maintained on this thread is that the Genesis account is too ambiguous to determine if scientific findings actually dispute what was written.

I remember a quote from a prophet in my Church - can't remember his name - but he was once asked if the Earth will one day be cleansed by fire as stated in the scriptures and he responded that the Earth would be purified, but not by literal fire, just like how the "water" that covered the Earth during the Flood was not literal water.

Again, my Church still has no stance on this issue - so even though this prophet (Joseph Fielding Smith? Maybe..) made this statement - we don't have any clue what he meant.

Also-I did not "come to a conclusion" about the ambiguous account, mt v hill thing.

I thought you made the claim that the "high hills" were covered by fifteen cubits of water in post #626?

Isn't that a conclusion?

In the event, you are straining weevils to find a distinction without a difference.

I'm not "straining" anything.

Just comparing my personal interpretation to yours. They are different.

It still says the high ground went under water, as it had to, to leave no dry ground; and the absurdity just of trying to determine how far under water the mt or hill is!

Since we don't know how the information in the Genesis account came to be - we can't determine anything.

If the account was dependent on the testimony of an observer of these events - then he could only describe what he could see.

To him, it appeared that all the mountains had been covered. He could not make the determination on his own.

But those are trifles as no event matching any version you can dream up actually happened.

There couldn't have been a local Flood event?

The events from the Fall of Adam to the building of Ark couldn't have happened on an island?

We don't have any evidence of sunken civilizations?

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

For purposes of this thread I do not interpret it beyond literally what is said: The rose higher than the high hills and covered the mountains, and all the life on the earth were killed..

You requested to cite what the Bible said concerning the world flood, and not how it can be interpreted.

Neat. Thank you.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

The Bible says 15 cubits above the mountains... but, there are no mountains at all in the Euphrates River Basin .. it pretty flat at about 30 feet above sea level .. becoming closer to sea level as you head south towards the delta.

Why do you believe that these events occurred in the Euphrates River Basin?

 

[sooda]

Why do you believe that these events occurred in the Euphrates River Basin?

That's where the flood myth comes from and there is a flood footprint there.

The Fertile Crescent, like the Nile Delta, floods routinely.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

That's where the flood myth comes from and there is a flood footprint there.

The Fertile Crescent, like the Nile Delta, floods routinely.

What are these claims based on?

 

[sooda]

What are these claims based on?

Clay tablets found in Sumer, Dilmun and Ras Shamra that predate Genesis.

 

[Audie]

Why would you assume this?

I already told you that my Church does not have a stance on this issue because we do not believe it is critical to our doctrine and teachings.

All I have maintained on this thread is that the Genesis account is too ambiguous to determine if scientific findings actually dispute what was written.

I remember a quote from a prophet in my Church - can't remember his name - but he was once asked if the Earth will one day be cleansed by fire as stated in the scriptures and he responded that the Earth would be purified, but not by literal fire, just like how the "water" that covered the Earth during the Flood was not literal water.

Again, my Church still has no stance on this issue - so even though this prophet (Joseph Fielding Smith? Maybe..) made this statement - we don't have any clue what he meant.

I thought you made the claim that the "high hills" were covered by fifteen cubits of water in post #626?

Isn't that a conclusion?

I'm not "straining" anything.

Just comparing my personal interpretation to yours. They are different.

Since we don't know how the information in the Genesis account came to be - we can't determine anything.

If the account was dependent on the testimony of an observer of these events - then he could only describe what he could see.

To him, it appeared that all the mountains had been covered. He could not make the determination on his own.

There couldn't have been a local Flood event?

The events from the Fall of Adam to the building of Ark couldn't have happened on an island?

We don't have any evidence of sunken civilizations?

To you and your chirch it is immaterial whether
your "god" is a mass murder psycho, or the flood
is just a myth that does not even belong in the
bible?

If you think that the events could have occurred
as described on an island you sure have not
thought very hard. There isnt even an island
in the area.

And no, there are no "sunken civilizations"
Which is wholly immaterial to your flood
myth, even if there were.

 

[Audie]

The Bible says 15 cubits above the mountains... but, there are no mountains at all in the Euphrates River Basin .. it pretty flat at about 30 feet above sea level .. becoming closer to sea level as you head south towards the delta.

Immagine the current on even a gentle slope,
of water 30 ft deep! Now try to get it to rain hsrd enough
to get 30 ft, as the water rushes away...then figure how
to get the water to stay that deep after the rain for
a year.

The Yellow River makes the Euphrates look like
outflow from a garden hose. The Mississippi
has flooded 50 miles across.

The flood story has rain, animals and a boat,
wnich are the only parts that are not magic
realism.

 

[sooda]

Why would you assume this?

I already told you that my Church does not have a stance on this issue because we do not believe it is critical to our doctrine and teachings.

All I have maintained on this thread is that the Genesis account is too ambiguous to determine if scientific findings actually dispute what was written.

I remember a quote from a prophet in my Church - can't remember his name - but he was once asked if the Earth will one day be cleansed by fire as stated in the scriptures and he responded that the Earth would be purified, but not by literal fire, just like how the "water" that covered the Earth during the Flood was not literal water.

Again, my Church still has no stance on this issue - so even though this prophet (Joseph Fielding Smith? Maybe..) made this statement - we don't have any clue what he meant.

I thought you made the claim that the "high hills" were covered by fifteen cubits of water in post #626?

Isn't that a conclusion?

I'm not "straining" anything.

Just comparing my personal interpretation to yours. They are different.

Since we don't know how the information in the Genesis account came to be - we can't determine anything.

If the account was dependent on the testimony of an observer of these events - then he could only describe what he could see.

To him, it appeared that all the mountains had been covered. He could not make the determination on his own.

There couldn't have been a local Flood event?

The events from the Fall of Adam to the building of Ark couldn't have happened on an island?

We don't have any evidence of sunken civilizations?

Genesis and Exodus were written after the Babylonian exile.. Until then the Hebrews didn't have any history or foundational myths.. They learned the flood story in Babylon.

 

[sooda]

Immagine the current on even a gentle slope,
of water 30 ft deep! Now try to get it to rain hsrd enough
to get 30 ft, as the water rushes away...then figure how
to get the water to stay that deep after the rain for
full half a year.

The Yellow River makes the Euphrates look like
outflow from a garden hose. The Mississippi
has flooded 50 miles across.

The flood story has rain, animals and a boat,
wnich are the only parts that are not magic
realism.

The flood sediment in the Euphrates Basin is 150 miles across and 350 miles to the south. The "ark" was barges that carried grain, beer and livestock down river.

The Babyonians had irrigation, a written language and even sailboats 3000 BC.. They were very advanced compared to the Hebrews and they had rich cultural myths that were spread to Dilmun and Ras Shamra long before Abraham.

 

[Audie]

Genesis and Exodus were written after the Babylonian exile.. Until then the Hebrews didn't have any history or foundational myths.. They learned the flood story in Babylon.

The flood story is written in short declarative
sentences, as simple an account as one can
find in the bible.

If a person cannot determine such basic things
as "is this the truth or is it a lie?"
"Is it a metaphor or literal?"
Especially about something of such
importance-
Then what can a "believer" say about anything
in the bible?

 

[Audie]

The flood sediment in the Euphrates Basin is 150 miles across and 350 miles to the south. The "ark" was barges that carried grain, beer and livestock down river.

The Babyonians had irrigation, a written language and even sailboats 3000 BC.. They were very advanced compared to the Hebrews and they had rich cultural myths that were spread to Dilmun and Ras Shamra long before Abraham.

All that is news of the well known, except for the
assertion that there was a flotilla of barges that
are somehow the ark.
That could stand as a vague possibility, tho
it makes a G Washington hatchet of the story,
ie, no original parts remaining.

 

[sooda]

The flood story is written in short declarative
sentences, as simple an account as one can
find in the bible.

If a person cannot determine such basic things
as "is this the truth or is it a lie?"
"Is it a metaphor or literal?"
Especially about something of such
importance-
Then what can a "believer" say about anything
in the bible?

Pretty tough to continue the self deception.

 

[sooda]

All that is news of the well known, except for the
assertion that there was a flotilla of barges that
are somehow the ark.
That could stand as a vague possibility, tho
it makes a G Washington hatchet of the story,
ie, no original parts remaining.

The records from 2900 BC indicate that the common practice was to sell grain, beer and livestock down river on barges. So while we don't know for sure the myth from Sumer claims they were carried down river and came to rest in the Bahrain archipelago .. Then you have thousands of clay tablets in Bahrain that repeat the story from Sumer.

 

[Audie]

Pretty tough to continue the self deception.

I am not good at it, but it is essential to
maintaining "faith". It takes a heavy toll
on people.

 

[sooda]

I am not good at it, but it is essential to
maintaining "faith". It takes a heavy toll
on people.

Park your brain? Yeah that's tough.

I suppose it isn't enough to read the stories as didactic literature...

 

[Audie]

The records from 2900 BC indicate that the common practice was to sell grain, beer and livestock down river on barges. So while we don't know for sure the myth from Sumer claims they were carried down river and came to rest in the Bahrain archipelago .. Then you have thousands of clay tablets in Bahrain that repeat the story from Sumer.

Could well be that some barges got caught in a flood.
That is a very different story.
As I said, if that event had a role in originating
the noahs ark thing, only water animal and boat
remain as true details.

 

[Audie]

Park your brain? Yeah that's tough.

I suppose it isn't enough to read the stories as didactic literature...

It is way worse than just parking.
It is deliberately choosing intellectual dishonesty
and maintaining it out of fear of eternal torture.

And what does the story didactify?
That god is a psycho?

I listened to a preacher gleefully describing
in great detail the terror of those caught outside
in the rain, really getying into that psycho spirit.

We note that those engaged in heretic torture
were likewise just getting into the spirit-and
probably figuring that their victims were just
getting a taste of what god was gonna do to them.

 

[gnostic]

Genesis and Exodus were written after the Babylonian exile.. Until then the Hebrews didn't have any history or foundational myths.. They learned the flood story in Babylon.

I think the Jews already knew of the Babylonian creation and flood myths before 6th century Neo-Babylonian empire.

They probably heard the myths, 1st from their contact with the Neo-Assyrian empire in the 7th century BCE, before Judah finally succumbed to the Neo-Babylonian forces in the early 6th century BCE.

Remember, Judah was a subject or vassal state when Assyria’s empire stretched all the way west to Egypt and poached on the border of the Phrygian kingdom, around 670 BCE. And Israel had fallen.

Even though Judah managed a semi-independence status, they did trade with the powerful neighbor.

Around this time, Ashurbanipal was in power, and unlike his ancestors, Ashurbanipal was interested in arts and literature, and was responsible for the library built at Nineveh, which among the works was the Epic of Gilgamesh.

By the time King Josiah came to power, Assyria was already weakening internally, especially by 627 BCE with Ashurbanipal’s death. This eventually led to Nineveh’s fall in 612 BCE.

Josiah started the foundation myth, to promote Judah’s greatness, most likely the person who started the creation-flood myth, that didn’t complete until the end of the Babylonian Exile.

The Assyrians kept the Bronze Age Babylonian myths alive after the fall of the 2nd dynasty of Babylon.