Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[sooda]

I think the Jews already knew of the Babylonian creation and flood myths before 6th century Neo-Babylonian empire.

They probably heard the myths, 1st from their contact with the Neo-Assyrian empire in the 7th century BCE, before Judah finally succumbed to the Neo-Babylonian forces in the early 6th century BCE.

Remember, Judah was a subject or vassal state when Assyria’s empire stretched all the way west to Egypt and poached on the border of the Phrygian kingdom, around 670 BCE. And Israel had fallen.

Even though Judah managed a semi-independence status, they did trade with the powerful neighbor.

Around this time, Ashurbanipal was in power, and unlike his ancestors, Ashurbanipal was interested in arts and literature, and was responsible for the library built at Nineveh, which among the works was the Epic of Gilgamesh.

By the time King Josiah came to power, Assyria was already weakening internally, especially by 627 BCE with Ashurbanipal’s death. This eventually led to Nineveh’s fall in 612 BCE.

Josiah started the foundation myth, to promote Judah’s greatness, most likely the person who started the creation-flood myth, that didn’t complete until the end of the Babylonian Exile.

The Assyrians kept the Bronze Age Babylonian myths alive after the fall of the 2nd dynasty of Babylon.

Good post. You really know your stuff.

 

[gnostic]

Good post. You really know your stuff.

Well, I tried.

I used to focused on history, literature and myths in the ancient west, like Greece and Rome, but since 2006, I have been looking at Egypt and the Near East with great interests.

I have not had much successes with the ancient Far East and India, because the materials are not as easy to come by.

 

[gnostic]

Oh, btw, sooda.

I wasn’t downplaying your points about Babylonian Exile being responsible for influences on Hebrew literature, I actually agree it did play a major role.

But I think the Mesopotamian influences started a little earlier.

 

[Audie]

Oh, btw, sooda.

I wasn’t downplaying your points about Babylonian Exile being responsible for influences on Hebrew literature, I actually agree it did play a major role.

But I think the Mesopotamian influences started a little earlier.

I wonder how the Abrahamic faiths would do
if their believers actually knew the history.

Probably about like if they shadowed J Smith
and noticed he never found any gold books.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Clay tablets found in Sumer, Dilmun and Ras Shamra that predate Genesis.

They predate the Genesis account, but not the events described in the Genesis account - obviously.

So what exactly do these clay tablets claim?

 

[shunyadragon]

They predate the Genesis account, but not the events described in the Genesis account - obviously.

So what exactly do these clay tablets claim?

Claims in ancient scripture do not translate to being true.

Going back to the earliest Sumerian cuneiform tablets of the flood they were simply recording history from their perspective that they believed was true.

 

[sooda]

They predate the Genesis account, but not the events described in the Genesis account - obviously.

So what exactly do these clay tablets claim?

They are a thousand years older than Abraham.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

To you and your chirch it is immaterial whether your "god" is a mass murder psycho, or the flood is just a myth that does not even belong in the bible?

Remember when I shared a list of "facts" my Church has taken from the Genesis account of the Flood event?

We believe that only Noah, his family and the creatures on the Ark survived the Flood event. We just don't know exactly what happened during the Flood event.

I don't believe it is logical to blame God for people dying in the Flood event, unless you blame Him every time someone dies in a natural disaster.

If you think that the events could have occurred as described on an island you sure have not thought very hard. There isnt even an island in the area.

There is no way to determine where pre-Flood events recorded in the Genesis account took place.

And no, there are no "sunken civilizations" Which is wholly immaterial to your flood myth, even if there were.

Sunken cities have been found all over the world.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Genesis and Exodus were written after the Babylonian exile.. Until then the Hebrews didn't have any history or foundational myths.. They learned the flood story in Babylon.

That is completely possible.

However, that possibility does not mean that the Flood event could not have happened as recorded in the Genesis account or that the pre-Flood events recorded in the Genesis account happened in the Euphrates River Basin.

 

[ecco]

I also don't understand why you seem to be so angry about my unwillingness to jump to conclusions about the Genesis account.

Angry? What gave you that impression?

Perhaps you do not understand the phrase "jump to conclusions". No one is asking you to jump to conclusions. You refer to Jesus in your avatar name. You are 34 years old. You are a member of LDS. One would think that you have had enough time to make up your mind about the truthfulness of Genesis.

When did I say that anything in Genesis really happened?

So let's stop dancing. Why don't you tell us, specifically, what parts of Genesis you believe are true as written.

 

[ecco]

The only way anyone could claim that all the mountains on Earth were covered in water would be if either God Himself wrote the Genesis account or He later told someone that all the mountains had been covered in water.

Either way - it would take a divine source for someone to make such a claim - because they would have been unable to discern it for themselves.

Or it's just a story.

The same can be said for the Gospels. There is no way that the "authors" were actual eyewitnesses to all the events they wrote about. There is no way that the "authors" could have correctly transcribed all of Jesus' actions and words.

Do you believe the Gospels are completely accurate? Or are they just stories.

 

[sooda]

That is completely possible.

However, that possibility does not mean that the Flood event could not have happened as recorded in the Genesis account or that the pre-Flood events recorded in the Genesis account happened in the Euphrates River Basin.

It did happen in the Euphrates river basin.. It wasn't a global flood.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Claims in ancient scripture do not translate to being true.

Going back to the earliest Sumerian cuneiform tablets of the flood they were simply recording history from their perspective that they believed was true.

That's stating the obvious.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

They are a thousand years older than Abraham.

Ok.

Why do you believe that matters?

 

[sooda]

Ok.

Why do you believe that matters?

The Hebrew were just another Canaanite tribe.. Only difference is that they were landless. Much of the OT is lifted from the North Coast Canaanites.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

It did happen in the Euphrates river basin.. It wasn't a global flood.

The clay tablets claiming that a Flood event happened in the Euphrates River Basin does not prove that any such event happened there or that the event they describe is the same event described in the Genesis account.

It is impossible to determine if the Genesis account is describing a global Flood event.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Angry? What gave you that impression?

Repeatedly asking if a need an interpreter.

Your claim that a ten-year old understands the Genesis account better than I do.

Your claim that I am engaging in "mental gymnastics".

Your claim that both the Genesis account and my claim that science can be wrong are "nonsense".

Your claim that I was not doing too well to avoid making assumptions.

Your claim that I was lying when I was applying my comments to a separate conversation with another forum member.

Then your nonsensical claim that I was a proponent of a flat earth.

So, yes, it sounds like you're angry and that you are more interested in attempting to shame me than having an actual discussion.

Perhaps you do not understand the phrase "jump to conclusions". No one is asking you to jump to conclusions.

I believe that the Genesis account is too ambiguous to make any accurate determinations about any supposed conflicts between it and science.

Everyone else is claiming that science disproves the Genesis account and that I am wrong if I say otherwise.

They want me to jump to a conclusion.

You refer to Jesus in your avatar name. You are 34 years old. You are a member of LDS. One would think that you have had enough time to make up your mind about the truthfulness of Genesis.

Yeah, that's not how the journey for truth works.

Me coming to a conclusion does not make it truthful.

So let's stop dancing.

Me saying the same thing over and over is hardly "dancing".

Why don't you tell us, specifically, what parts of Genesis you believe are true as written.

The Book of Genesis is large and is recorded to span thousands of years.

I'm not willing to commit the time and effort necessary to fulfill your request.

Especially considering that I doubt anyone here would really appreciate me doing so.

I have already mentioned throughout this thread some things recorded in Genesis that I believe to be true and I explained that my main reason for believing in them is because they agree with other ancient and latter-day scriptures.

I'm satisfied with what I have said and ask that you be satisfied too.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

The Hebrew were just another Canaanite tribe.. Only difference is that they were landless. Much of the OT is lifted from the North Coast Canaanites.

I'm still struggling to see why you believe any of this matters.

 

[sooda]

Repeatedly asking if a need an interpreter.

Your claim that a ten-year old understands the Genesis account better than I do.

Your claim that I am engaging in "mental gymnastics".

Your claim that both the Genesis account and my claim that science can be wrong are "nonsense".

Your claim that I was not doing too well to avoid making assumptions.

Your claim that I was lying when I was applying my comments to a separate conversation with another forum member.

Then your nonsensical claim that I was a proponent of a flat earth.

So, yes, it sounds like you're angry and that you are more interested in attempting to shame me than having an actual discussion.

I believe that the Genesis account is too ambiguous to make any accurate determinations about any supposed conflicts between it and science.

Everyone else is claiming that science disproves the Genesis account and that I am wrong if I say otherwise.

They want me to jump to a conclusion.

Yeah, that's not how the journey for truth works.

Me coming to a conclusion does not make it truthful.

Me saying the same thing over and over is hardly "dancing".

The Book of Genesis is large and is recorded to span thousands of years.

I'm not willing to commit the time and effort necessary to fulfill your request.

Especially considering that I doubt anyone here would really appreciate me doing so.

I have already mentioned throughout this thread some things recorded in Genesis that I believe to be true and I explained that my main reason for believing in them is because they agree with other ancient and latter-day scriptures.

I'm satisfied with what I have said and ask that you be satisfied too.

No its not .. Look at the years between the flood and the Tower of Babel.

Noah lived a very long time—950 years total. The flood occurred when Noah was 600 years old—in the year 1656 since creation, and Noah and the others left the ark the next year—1657 since creation. The incident known as the Tower of Babel took place when Noah was 940 years old—in the year 1996 since creation.
Ask the Rabbi, JewishAnswers.org » Noah, Tower of Babel ...
www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-3463/noah-tower-of-babel-population-growth/?p=3463

 

[Audie]

Remember when I shared a list of "facts" my Church has taken from the Genesis account of the Flood event?

We believe that only Noah, his family and the creatures on the Ark survived the Flood event. We just don't know exactly what happened during the Flood event.

I don't believe it is logical to blame God for people dying in the Flood event, unless you blame Him every time someone dies in a natural disaster.

There is no way to determine where pre-Flood events recorded in the Genesis account took place.

Sunken cities have been found all over the world.

Not that a sunken city has anything
to do with "noahs ark" but-

You are already changing your story.
It was civilizations, now cities.

Lets hear about these sunken cities.

Dont make me laugh with Port Royal.