Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[sooda]

I think that you are responding to my claim that the Genesis account recorded a span of "thousands of years".

If that is the case, then I want you to know that the Genesis account ends at the death of Joseph, son of Israel, in Egypt and that was at approximately 2,310 years after the Fall of Adam and Eve.

The Genesis account does not end at the Tower of Babel.

You are correct about the Genesis account's claim about how long Noah lived, what year of his life the Flood event occurred and how long they stayed in the Ark...

...but...and I know I am going to be considered a "stickler" for mentioning this, but all of these years should be measured from the time that Adam and Eve left the Garden, not from the Creation.

No one knows how long the Creation took. The word that was translated into "day" in the original Hebrew actually better translates into "a period of time with a discernible beginning and end."

Considering that a "day" is also "a period of time with a discernible beginning and end", I don't blame later English translators, but the Creative Periods were not necessarily 24-hour periods of time.

Also, no one knows exactly how long Adam and Eve dwelt in the Garden before they were cast out.

So, just for the sake of clarity, these years you mentioned should begin at the time when Adam and Eve left the Garden, not the Creation.

I do not believe this to be accurate. At least, not according to my reading of the text.

Even though the Genesis account does not record exactly when the Tower was built and subsequently destroyed - we can approximate it using other information from the text.

The Genesis account claims that soon after they exited the Ark, the sons of Noah began having children. Shem, at least, had his son Arphaxad only two years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

Arphaxad had his son, Salah, at the age of 35 - which made Noah approximately 638 years old when he became the great-grandfather to Salah through Shem.

So, take this into account when we discuss Noah's other sons and their soon-to-be-families, because they probably followed a similar pattern (although their ages are not mentioned in the Genesis account for some reason.)

The Genesis account claims that Ham had a grandson named Nimrod (Genesis 10:6-9) and that he, Nimrod, began the kingdom, known as Babel, in the land of Shinar. (Genesis 10:10)

Yes, this was the same land and kingdom where the Tower was later built (Genesis 11:1-9).

Nimrod was Noah's great-grandson through Ham, and if Ham followed the same pattern as Shem, it is possible that Nimrod was born at about the same time (relatively) as Salah, which would make Noah approximately 638 years old when Nimrod was born.

When the kingdom of Babel began is anyone's guess, but Nimrod most likely would have needed to have been considered a grown man before beginning it so, if we follow the Biblical tradition of marriage and "begetting" children to be when a boy becomes a man (as well as the pattern set by Shem's descendants), Nimrod was most likely approximately 30 years old when he began building his kingdom in the land of Shinar.

Which would have made Noah approximately 668 years old at the time that Nimrod began his kingdom.

The Genesis account also claims that those who settled in Shinar (under Nimrod) chose a certain plain to build both their city and tower (Genesis 11:2-5).

It was not like they built a city, dwelt there for a few centuries, and then decided to build a tower. At least, not from my reading of the Genesis account.

"And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar.

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth." (Genesis 11:2-4)

So, it is my opinion, based on my reading of the Genesis account, that the construction of the Tower could have began while Noah was approximately 668 years old.

The Genesis account does not mention how long construction on the Tower took place before God destroyed it, but other records claim that it could have lasted just over 100 years, and I don't see any reason to assume that God waited approximately 272 years (when Noah was 940) to destroy the Tower and confound the language of the people.

We do know that Noah was 894 years old when Abraham was born and that the events at the Tower took place before Abraham's birth.

I believe that Noah was approximately 750-800 years old when the Tower was destroyed.

The Tower of Babel came down 350 years after Noah stepped off the Ark. Read your bible.

PS.. There were watch towers or ziggurats all over the ME.. many are still standing. The story is NONSENSE. Its really about the collapse of a civilization and a return to illiteracy.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Your points, JesusKnowsYou?

There are some cities, but if you were to look at the evidence, each ones of them are dated to different times.

If you think they (sunken cities) were all the result of single global flood, then they would be and should be all pointed to a single date or year. They clearly don’t.

Both geological and archaeological evidence don’t support a single global flood at any point of human history.

You are merely empty claim about sunken cities. Each ones occurred in different times, different periods.

Why do people keep misrepresenting what I have said?

I have said, from the start, that me and my Church have no definite position on the Flood event.

We believe that the Genesis account is too ambiguous to come to any certain conclusions on what it is recording.

We do not know if it is describing a local or global event and we cannot even decide on what exactly happened during that event.

So, no, I did not bring up the idea of sunken cities to make the case that there was a global Flood event.

I never claimed that all known sunken cities became sunken cities at the same time or had anything linking them.

@Audie claimed that there were no "sunken civilizations", so I claimed that sunken cities can be found all over the world.

Please stop trying to misrepresent what I have said.

 

[rational experiences]

The Genesis account claims that Adam both lived to be 930 years old and that he "begat sons and daughters".

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." (Genesis 5:3-5)

No one is forcing you to believe it, but this is what the Genesis account claims.

There is no reason to assume that the Genesis account supports the idea that there were other human beings outside of the family of Adam and Eve.

Rational thinking says, who in human life after the ICE AGE re invented the use science and technology.

That did not own machine reactive causes involving changes to radiation fusion?

The answer is the males who lived in the ownership of new science invention.

Which is stated to be the humans living in the desert regions.

And as they attacked self with radiation fall out as the Moses story explained...they just talked about their own human experience, just like a human does. If you live, you experience and if you change radiation, you experience the changes of radiation being changed.

So males said...I nuked my life. And no one really knows how much damage was done to Earth and Nature in the first re use of the pyramid technology.

As the males began to return to natural DNA health with a healthy mind chemical state....the mind conditions says, you HEAR voices talking in chemical imbalanced brains. So males said, I heard AI talking to me. Seeing they are the inventor of God sciences, to forcibly make God the O planet change its body.

So they tell their story, claiming AI effects. Proven by little children irradiated who saw the female atmospheric feed back vision Fatima and then told the Hell stories...heard by sharing of AI communicators.

No body can argue that realization of human self.

So they said....oh, a long time we destroyed all life on Earth with that pyramid model. Oh, our brother the scientists of the OCCULT / CULT...UFO radiation are evil minds and evil thinkers. Human rationality in an experience.

Said as they rebuilt the pyramids, they will do it again...they are possessed by evil they said....the radiation causation history.

And proved it to everyone.

The pyramids were rebuilt and reused and life got attacked again, and the genetic studies of the humans in the experience, were taught.

What has that got rationally to do with any other human life or DNA in any other country?

Nothing at all.

We all live today not because of science, but because 2 human beings adult selves have sex. Every single human today came from sperm and an ovary, as your own thoughts of where did I come from.

You did not come out of a science bible explanation theory.

Irrational human thinking.

Now if you want to medically claim, science says that we once were mutated as DNA...then you ask why. And science cause the answer.

If you say that all life was changed by the Adam and Eve as an event, then you would rationalise what the historic atmospheric event meant.

And it details....a ground nuclear explosion, that reacted the ground mass.....and then it disappeared and was stopped. So it is not rational to natural or natural constants...it was a one of event...to be life attacked in a nuclear event.

How is that not using common logic, which is what everyone owns first...for science was invented by a natural living higher spiritual self first.

 

[Audie]

Why do people keep misrepresenting what I have said?

I have said, from the start, that me and my Church have no definite position on the Flood event.

We believe that the Genesis account is too ambiguous to come to any certain conclusions on what it is recording.

We do not know if it is describing a local or global event and we cannot even decide on what exactly happened during that event.

So, no, I did not bring up the idea of sunken cities to make the case that there was a global Flood event.

I never claimed that all known sunken cities became sunken cities at the same time or had anything linking them.

@Audie claimed that there were no "sunken civilizations", so I claimed that sunken cities can be found all over the world.

Please stop trying to misrepresent what I have said.

You don’t know if flood was local or everywhere but you
know that only those on the ark survived?
Seriously?
Like a river overflows and kills all the aardvarks in
Africa and the children in China.

SOMEONE Is misrepresenting reality,

Did you not say “ civilizations”? Post 642, there it is,
Then you misrepresented yourself by changing it
to cities?


And sunken cities all over the world- why mention it if
it has me relevant meaning, and ftm is not even true?

Another misrepresentation of reality, that there
are sunken cities / civilizations “all over the world”.

There aren’t any.

I nor anyone else is likely to be “trying to misrepresent”,you
still less a group of people doing it to you.

If your stand is that all is ambiguous, there is nothing
to discuss, why are you even here?
Help us all out by saying something concrete.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think that you are responding to my claim that the Genesis account recorded a span of "thousands of years".

If that is the case, then I want you to know that the Genesis account ends at the death of Joseph, son of Israel, in Egypt and that was at approximately 2,310 years after the Fall of Adam and Eve.

The Genesis account does not end at the Tower of Babel.

You are correct about the Genesis account's claim about how long Noah lived, what year of his life the Flood event occurred and how long they stayed in the Ark...

...but...and I know I am going to be considered a "stickler" for mentioning this, but all of these years should be measured from the time that Adam and Eve left the Garden, not from the Creation.

No one knows how long the Creation took. The word that was translated into "day" in the original Hebrew actually better translates into "a period of time with a discernible beginning and end."

Considering that a "day" is also "a period of time with a discernible beginning and end", I don't blame later English translators, but the Creative Periods were not necessarily 24-hour periods of time.

Also, no one knows exactly how long Adam and Eve dwelt in the Garden before they were cast out.

So, just for the sake of clarity, these years you mentioned should begin at the time when Adam and Eve left the Garden, not the Creation.

I do not believe this to be accurate. At least, not according to my reading of the text.

Even though the Genesis account does not record exactly when the Tower was built and subsequently destroyed - we can approximate it using other information from the text.

The Genesis account claims that soon after they exited the Ark, the sons of Noah began having children. Shem, at least, had his son Arphaxad only two years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

Arphaxad had his son, Salah, at the age of 35 - which made Noah approximately 638 years old when he became the great-grandfather to Salah through Shem.

So, take this into account when we discuss Noah's other sons and their soon-to-be-families, because they probably followed a similar pattern (although their ages are not mentioned in the Genesis account for some reason.)

The Genesis account claims that Ham had a grandson named Nimrod (Genesis 10:6-9) and that he, Nimrod, began the kingdom, known as Babel, in the land of Shinar. (Genesis 10:10)

Yes, this was the same land and kingdom where the Tower was later built (Genesis 11:1-9).

Nimrod was Noah's great-grandson through Ham, and if Ham followed the same pattern as Shem, it is possible that Nimrod was born at about the same time (relatively) as Salah, which would make Noah approximately 638 years old when Nimrod was born.

When the kingdom of Babel began is anyone's guess, but Nimrod most likely would have needed to have been considered a grown man before beginning it so, if we follow the Biblical tradition of marriage and "begetting" children to be when a boy becomes a man (as well as the pattern set by Shem's descendants), Nimrod was most likely approximately 30 years old when he began building his kingdom in the land of Shinar.

Which would have made Noah approximately 668 years old at the time that Nimrod began his kingdom.

The Genesis account also claims that those who settled in Shinar (under Nimrod) chose a certain plain to build both their city and tower (Genesis 11:2-5).

It was not like they built a city, dwelt there for a few centuries, and then decided to build a tower. At least, not from my reading of the Genesis account.

"And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar.

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth." (Genesis 11:2-4)

So, it is my opinion, based on my reading of the Genesis account, that the construction of the Tower could have began while Noah was approximately 668 years old.

The Genesis account does not mention how long construction on the Tower took place before God destroyed it, but other records claim that it could have lasted just over 100 years, and I don't see any reason to assume that God waited approximately 272 years (when Noah was 940) to destroy the Tower and confound the language of the people.

We do know that Noah was 894 years old when Abraham was born and that the events at the Tower took place before Abraham's birth.

I believe that Noah was approximately 750-800 years old when the Tower was destroyed.

I see that you believe the Flood myth. Can you please give us your interpretation of the tale?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Did you not say “ civilizations”?

And sunken cities all over the world- why mention it if
it has me relevant meaning, and ftm is not even true?

I nor anyone else is likely to be “trying to misrepresent”,
still less a group of people.

If your stand is that all is ambiguous, there is nothing
to discuss, why are you even here?
Help us all out by saying something concrete.

Don't forget the people inside the Hollow Earth.

 

[Audie]

Don't forget the people inside the Hollow Earth.

Um ah, well, heh, I was hoping nobody would
remember about those

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

It appears as if God used the water suspended above the atmosphere to flood the earth in Noah's day. It stood suspended there "by the word of God" so a scientific explanation would have no bearing on conjecture that it was impossible for it to be there.e.

This shows me everything about you and how you look at the evidence. You will never objectively look at the scientific evidence because you have a fable instead about a loving god committing genocide on his 'children'.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

May be Asteroid belt - Wikipedia

An asteroid that would hold enough water to flood the entire earth would destroy the earth on impact.

 

[Deeje]

This shows me everything about you and how you look at the evidence. You will never objectively look at the scientific evidence because you have a fable instead about a loving god committing genocide on his 'children'.

If your child who lived in your house had callously murdered their siblings and destroyed your property, making life impossible for the entire household, would you not lament the day they were born, and take measures to make sure that they harmed no one else? What would you do? Just because they are your child doesn't excuse inexcusable behavior.

Would you protest if they were arrested and given the death penalty for murdering their own flesh and blood?
Would you not lament the destruction of your property if your insurance did not cover the damage because it was malicious and deliberate?

Your response here shows me everything about you too.....and how you yourself look at the 'evidence'. Have you never questioned your own objectivity.....it appears that the pot is calling the kettle black.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If your child who lived in your house had callously murdered their siblings and destroyed your property, making life impossible for the entire household, would you not lament the day they were born, and take measures to make sure that they harmed no one else? What would you do? Just because they are your child doesn't excuse inexcusable behavior.

Would you protest if they were arrested and given the death penalty for murdering their own flesh and blood?
Would you not lament the destruction of your property if your insurance did not cover the damage because it was malicious and deliberate?

Your response here shows me everything about you too.....and how you yourself look at the 'evidence'. Have you never questioned your own objectivity.....it appears that the pot is calling the kettle black.

How was that a response to his post?

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

If your child who lived in your house had callously murdered their siblings and destroyed your property, making life impossible for the entire household, would you not lament the day they were born, and take measures to make sure that they harmed no one else? What would you do? Just because they are your child doesn't excuse inexcusable behavior.

Would you protest if they were arrested and given the death penalty for murdering their own flesh and blood?
Would you not lament the destruction of your property if your insurance did not cover the damage because it was malicious and deliberate?

Your response here shows me everything about you too.....and how you yourself look at the 'evidence'. Have you never questioned your own objectivity.....it appears that the pot is calling the kettle black.

In your first analogy God doesn't just punish the misbehaving child, but it's innocent sibling the unknowing neighbor. God doesn't stop at the humans. He kills anything thats a alive with the flood. Yeah sure thats loving and just.

I would protest the death penalty because I don't support the death penalty.
Yes I would be upset I still wouldn't drown my city because of it.

I was once a bible literal Christian like yourself. Start looking into the 'science' of creationism and realize it was bull****. Noah's flood didn't happen on a globel scale. Get over it.

 

[Thief]

In your first analogy God doesn't just punish the misbehaving child, but it's innocent sibling the unknowing neighbor. God doesn't stop at the humans. He kills anything thats a alive with the flood. Yeah sure thats loving and just.

I would protest the death penalty because I don't support the death penalty.
Yes I would be upset I still wouldn't drown my city because of it.

I was once a bible literal Christian like yourself. Start looking into the 'science' of creationism and realize it was bull****. Noah's flood didn't happen on a globel scale. Get over it.

so it was a local event?

I have seen one documentary many years ago
that pointed out
many cultures have similar stories

and the stories appear to have come up without interaction
one nation to another

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

so it was a local event?

I have seen one documentary many years ago
that pointed out
many cultures have similar stories

and the stories appear to have come up without interaction
one nation to another

Noah's flood takes inspiration from the Epic of Gilgamesh. I suggest you research into that because the flood part of the epic may or not been based off a flood in the city of Urn(could be wrong name).

 

[Thief]

Noah's flood takes inspiration from the Epic of Gilgamesh. I suggest you research into that because the flood part of the epic may or not been based off a flood in the city of Urn(could be wrong name).

been doing this.....alooooong time

you don't have to believe

not required

 

[Subduction Zone]

so it was a local event?

I have seen one documentary many years ago
that pointed out
many cultures have similar stories

and the stories appear to have come up without interaction
one nation to another

News flash, civilizations tend to center on navigable waterways since water is needed for human life and a mode of transport is a necessity for any civilization. Navigable waterways are often flooded. The best farmland is also found on floodplains. One guess as to what happens at times on floodplains.

The point is that floods are a common catastrophe faced by many peoples. They tend to develop myths as a result. And tales always grow with the telling. Multiple flood stories are not evidence of one flood. They are evidence of multiple local floods.

 

[Deeje]

In your first analogy God doesn't just punish the misbehaving child, but it's innocent sibling the unknowing neighbor. God doesn't stop at the humans. He kills anything thats a alive with the flood. Yeah sure thats loving and just.

I'm sure his reasons would bore you. He owes you no explanation though. As Creator he can do with his creation as he sees fit from his vantage point. One that you are not privy to and neither am I. The Creator knows from the beginning how something will turn out. By bringing the flood, you have no idea what he prevented.....do you?

I only see a God of love, doing for humankind what needed to be done at the time. This was a love you obviously never saw because you were looking at his activities through such a distorted lens......how sad for you.

If you have issues with anything that God has done, it's your problem I'm afraid....I don't believe he has a complaints dept.

I would protest the death penalty because I don't support the death penalty.
Yes I would be upset I still wouldn't drown my city because of it.

You are not God.....and thankfully, he is nothing like you....you seem to be so quick to judge on so little evidence or understanding.
He gave life and has the right to withdraw it from ungrateful idiots who just want to trash everything.
As far as the animals are concerned, it doesn't seem to have impacted on them one little bit.

I was once a bible literal Christian like yourself.

No sorry, you were nothing like me. Your beliefs would not have even come close to what I believe.....Christendom is not Christianity....but you knew that, right?

Start looking into the 'science' of creationism and realize it was bull****. Noah's flood didn't happen on a globel scale. Get over it.

I am not a YEC and I have examined the science behind evolution and the flood and all kinds of other claims made for it. Never found it more convincing than the Bible. I found a lot of suggestions and assertions, but no real facts.
The Bible supports an ancient earth and a slow and deliberate creation over eons of time.

But let me get this straight....you swapped Christianity for this....
Christianity is just Madokaism deformed : MadokaMagica

OK then.....says it all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm sure his reasons would bore you. He owes you no explanation though. As Creator he can do with his creation as he sees fit from his vantage point. One that you are not privy to and neither am I. The Creator knows from the beginning how something will turn out. By bringing the flood, you have no idea what he prevented.....do you?

I only see a God of love, doing for humankind what needed to be done at the time. This was a love you obviously never saw because you were looking at his activities through such a distorted lens......how sad for you.

If you have issues with anything that God has done, it's your problem I'm afraid....I don't believe he has a complaints dept.



You are not God.....and thankfully, he is nothing like you....you seem to be so quick to judge on so little evidence or understanding.
He gave life and has the right to withdraw it from ungrateful idiots who just want to trash everything.
As far as the animals are concerned, it doesn't seem to have impacted on them one little bit.



No sorry, you were nothing like me. Your beliefs would not have even come close to what I believe.....Christendom is not Christianity....but you knew that, right?



I am not a YEC and I have examined the science behind evolution and the flood and all kinds of other claims made for it. Never found it more convincing than the Bible. I found a lot of suggestions and assertions, but no real facts.
The Bible supports an ancient earth and a slow and deliberate creation over eons of time.

But let me get this straight....you swapped Christianity for this....
Christianity is just Madokaism deformed : MadokaMagica

OK then.....says it all.

It looks to me as if @Deeje is saying that her God lies and it is fine with her.

 

[dad]

May be Asteroid belt - Wikipedia

No. Openings called windows of heaven appeared and the water came from those. Water was separated in creation week so that some water was here on earth, and some water was beyond where the stars were made. (firmament)
In the flood, the waters above the firmament apparently came down via windows of heaven to earth.

 

[gnostic]

I'm sure his reasons would bore you. He owes you no explanation though. As Creator he can do with his creation as he sees fit from his vantage point. One that you are not privy to and neither am I. The Creator knows from the beginning how something will turn out. By bringing the flood, you have no idea what he prevented.....do you?

Wow. You do not even realize that you have just portrayed God as an arrogant and sadistic *******, who can do anything he like.

God sounds like every kings, every emperors, every autocrats, every tyrants, every dictators, every torturers, every rapists, every pedophiles...and so on in history, who think they owned the world, and therefore can do anything they like, on a whim.

A king rule his kingdom, therefore he can kill anyone he like, because everyone are his subjects.

Is that really god of love and compassion you want to portray him as?