Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[gnostic]

No. Openings called windows of heaven appeared and the water came from those. Water was separated in creation week so that some water was here on earth, and some water was beyond where the stars were made. (firmament)
In the flood, the waters above the firmament apparently came down via windows of heaven to earth.

And there goes all logic, out the window.

 

[Thief]

News flash, civilizations tend to center on navigable waterways since water is needed for human life and a mode of transport is a necessity for any civilization. Navigable waterways are often flooded. The best farmland is also found on floodplains. One guess as to what happens at times on floodplains.

The point is that floods are a common catastrophe faced by many peoples. They tend to develop myths as a result. And tales always grow with the telling. Multiple flood stories are not evidence of one flood. They are evidence of multiple local floods.

sounds like flash flood

 

[Thief]

Is that really god of love and compassion

logic

 

[Subduction Zone]

sounds like flash flood

No. That is a rather specialized local flood.

 

[Thief]

cleansing the earth of an undesired population would be specialized

water can rise
it can receed

salt water will harm farmland

 

[Subduction Zone]

cleansing the earth of an undesired population would be specialized

water can rise
it can receed

salt water will harm farmland

Yes, but that is not the sort of flood being discussed.

 

[dad]

And there goes all logic, out the window.

You can't say that denying the record is logical, especially when you do it for no reason. You see if the time of the flood was in a different nature and God the creator was conducting the operation, science is really way way way out of the look. It has no ability to know or comprehend.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You can't say that denying the record is logical, especially when you do it for no reason. You see if the time of the flood was in a different nature and God the creator was conducting the operation, science is really way way way out of the look. It has no ability to know or comprehend.

But it is not a "record". It appears to be a book of myths. If you want to claim that it is a record of any sort you put the burden of proof upon you. Otherwise it is no more valid than any other holy book.

 

[dad]

But it is not a "record". It appears to be a book of myths. .

Your opinion, although baseless, is noted.

 

[gnostic]

You can't say that denying the record is logical, especially when you do it for no reason. You see if the time of the flood was in a different nature and God the creator was conducting the operation, science is really way way way out of the look. It has no ability to know or comprehend.

When you have stories of

1. creation of daylight without the sun,
2. creation of sun, moon and stars after creation of vegetation,
3. creation of birds with marine life and before creation of land animals,
4. creation of man by transforming lifeless dust into living human being,
5. and talking serpent...

...then, in just a matter of 2 chapters, you don’t have verifiable records but just a myth. There are nothing logical about Genesis, and they are certainly not scientific.

1. Science required clear explanation of mechanism. The Genesis narrative don’t provide any.
2. Science required evidence that verified the explanation of that mechanism. A number of evidence points to each events in Genesis 1 & 2 (which I have listed above, eg the 5 points) not being true.

And let’s look at your earlier post again, you wrote:

No. Openings called windows of heaven appeared and the water came from those. Water was separated in creation week so that some water was here on earth, and some water was beyond where the stars were made. (firmament)
In the flood, the waters above the firmament apparently came down via windows of heaven to earth.

You really think water can travel from other stars, and caused the global flood on earth (thus Genesis 7 & 8)?

Do you know which stars are closest to us, dad?

1. Proxima Centauri (or Alpha Centauri C), 4.22 light years away
2. Alpha Centauri A & B, both 4.37 light years away
3. the two-star system, Sirius, 8.6 light years away

These stars are our nearest neighbors.

NASA’s Voyager 1 was launched in 1977, and it is the most distant object that we have sent out in space.

In 36.5 years, Voyager 1, may have left left out Solar System, but it has only travelled 127.22 AU (Astronomical Unit, roughly the distance between the sun and Earth), which is equivalent to 0.00211 light-year. Voyager 1 is nowhere near covering the distance of 1 light-year, let alone reaching the distance of our closest neighbor (Proxima Centauri).

For Voyager 1 to travel 4 light-year (equal to 252,964 AU) at its current speed (17 km/s), it will take Voyager 1 to travel 6930 years. Except that voyager 1 won’t last that long, because in another 5 years, it will lose all power, therefore no more transmission of data.

(Note that you may think 17 km/s not very fast.

But the fastest manned aircraft - North American X-15 - could reach speed of 7200 km/h (Mach 6.7, meaning over 6 times the speed of sound), world record since 1967. If you were to convert 17 km/s into km/h, then Voyager 1 is travelling at 61,200 km/h).

If this is true, then how do you expect water to travel from the Alpha Centauri star system or from the Sirius star system?

No matter what you make think, water cannot travel that distance.

Even comets, which are made of ice and dust, do not travel from other stars. What we see are icy objects, that have to travel close enough to the Sun, to become warm enough to release gases, which caused the visible streak (tail) you see behind the comets.

If you think water can travel those distance (from those stars I had mentioned) to flood Earth, your wild imagination is more delusional than logical.

 

[gnostic]

Your opinion, although baseless, is noted.

Opinions are only “baseless”, IF YOU CANNOT OBSERVE, MEASURE OR VERIFY anything.

And you really cannot verify what you believe in, therefore it is your opinions and personal belief in the Bible, that are “baseless”.

 

[sooda]

The firmament, I believe, is the atmosphere.
The apostle Peter explains why the waters above the expanse are no longer there. Speaking of the time when God flooded the world, and correlating that with the time of Christ's return, he said...

2 Peter 3:3-7....
"First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people."

It appears as if God used the water suspended above the atmosphere to flood the earth in Noah's day. It stood suspended there "by the word of God" so a scientific explanation would have no bearing on conjecture that it was impossible for it to be there. A water canopy surrounding the earth would have created "hot house" conditions on earth, evening out the climate and creating a temperate, humid environment conducive to lush growth. The fact that they have unearthed palm trees in Siberia lends credence to that situation IMO.

Jesus said his return would see world conditions similar to those times....violence and immorality being the norm....and here we are again.

And, according to Strongs Concordance, the word used for "circle" in Hebrew (chuwg) also means a sphere.

"Firmament" is solid.. not water or atmosphere.

 

[sooda]

But the spherical Oort Cloud, as revealed in post #16 DOES.

Its poetic language in vivid metaphors NOT science.

Genesis 1:7, NIV: "So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.". Genesis 1:7, ESV: "And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse.

 

[gnostic]

The firmament, I believe, is the atmosphere.
The apostle Peter explains why the waters above the expanse are no longer there. Speaking of the time when God flooded the world, and correlating that with the time of Christ's return, he said...

2 Peter 3:3-7....
"First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people."

It appears as if God used the water suspended above the atmosphere to flood the earth in Noah's day. It stood suspended there "by the word of God" so a scientific explanation would have no bearing on conjecture that it was impossible for it to be there. A water canopy surrounding the earth would have created "hot house" conditions on earth, evening out the climate and creating a temperate, humid environment conducive to lush growth. The fact that they have unearthed palm trees in Siberia lends credence to that situation IMO.

Jesus said his return would see world conditions similar to those times....violence and immorality being the norm....and here we are again.

And, according to Strongs Concordance, the word used for "circle" in Hebrew (chuwg) also means a sphere.

You are ignoring that Genesis 1 say that the sun, moon and stars were created within the firmament, which would mean the water above, would be higher than the sun, moon and stars.

Creation of the firmament (2nd day), which in this translation referred to as a “dome” and the “sky”:

6 And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. 8 God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

Creation of sun, moon and stars (Genesis 1:14-19, 4th day) inside the firmament (inside the “dome of the sky”):

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

So if you are saying firmament/dome (2nd day) is the Earth’s atmosphere, then the 4th day passage is saying that the sun, moon and stars are also in the Earth’s atmosphere.

That’s scientifically and astronomically wrong. The stars are not within the Earth’s atmosphere, nor are the sun and moon. And there no water above any stars.

What rubbish did JW indoctrinated you with or teach you, that you cannot see how wrong your claims are?

 

[sooda]

You are ignoring that Genesis 1 say that the sun, moon and stars were created within the firmament, which would mean the water above, would be higher than the sun, moon and stars.

Creation of the firmament (2nd day), which in this translation referred to as a “dome” and the “sky”:



Creation of sun, moon and stars (Genesis 1:14-19, 4th day) inside the firmament (inside the “dome of the sky”):



So if you are saying firmament/dome (2nd day) is the Earth’s atmosphere, then the 4th day passage is saying that the sun, moon and stars are also in the Earth’s atmosphere.

That’s scientifically and astronomically wrong. The stars are not within the Earth’s atmosphere, nor are the sun and moon. And there no water above any stars.

What rubbish did JW indoctrinated you with or teach you, that you cannot see how wrong your claims are?

Thank you.. Well done.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your opinion, although baseless, is noted.

My opinion is supported by your own claims actually. You do not know what a "record" is. Or did you forget what you wrote about how your myths were passed on before Hebrew existed? If you can't even remember your own errors we will never get anywhere.

 

[gnostic]

Note that different translations used different words for firmament:

firmament: KJV
dome: NRSV
vault: NIV
expanse: NASB, ESA, NJPS​

In Isaiah 40:22, most translations used the word “tent” to describe the firmament.

 

[gnostic]

Thank you.. Well done.

Thank you.

I don't think Deeje was paying that much attention to the contexts of what those passages are saying.

Plus, if I don't think she understand science as well as she believe she do.

 

[dad]

My opinion is supported by your own claims actually. You do not know what a "record" is. Or did you forget what you wrote about how your myths were passed on before Hebrew existed? If you can't even remember your own errors we will never get anywhere.

Records are not just written ones on earth. Before there was writing, for example, any record would not have been written!
We also know God keeps records in heaven. Records like the book of life.
1Jo 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It was a simple matter of transferring the record to earth, and, later as writing came to be needed, doing so in written form as well.

 

[dad]

When you have stories of

1. creation of daylight without the sun,
2. creation of sun, moon and stars after creation of vegetation,
3. creation of birds with marine life and before creation of land animals,
4. creation of man by transforming lifeless dust into living human being,
5. and talking serpent...

...then, in just a matter of 2 chapters, you don’t have verifiable records but just a myth. There are nothing logical about Genesis, and they are certainly not scientific.

Science cannot deal in issues that involve creation and God and the spiritual and far past, period. God uses real science. True science. That does deal in those things. Doubting without any evidence at all is not scientific!

1. Science required clear explanation of mechanism. The Genesis narrative don’t provide any.

Yes it did. God. Science doesn't deal in that. Don't blame us.

1. 
   

   [*]Science required evidence that verified the explanation of that mechanism. A number of evidence points to each events in Genesis 1 & 2 (which I have listed above, eg the 5 points) not being true.

   
   
2. What is true about God or creation or the far past has zero to do with science. Trying to hold up physical science of the modern world as some basis to decide what it knows nothing at all about is insanity.

You really think water can travel from other stars, and caused the global flood on earth (thus Genesis 7 & 8)?[/QUOTAre we supposed to think the Creator cannot open up windows that do something similar?? Ha.

Do you know which stars are closest to us, dad?

1. Proxima Centauri (or Alpha Centauri C), 4.22 light years away
2. Alpha Centauri A & B, both 4.37 light years away
3. the two-star system, Sirius, 8.6 light years away

These stars are our nearest neighbors.

Man has not sent probes even as far as ONE light day away yet! Man has no clue what tie is like way beyond this. Those light years are based on time existing out there as it does here. In other words total belief! The real sizes and distances are unknown.

NASA’s Voyager 1 was launched in 1977, and it is the most distant object that we have sent out in space.

In 36.5 years, Voyager 1, may have left left out Solar System, but it has only travelled 127.22 AU (Astronomical Unit, roughly the distance between the sun and Earth), which is equivalent to 0.00211 light-year. Voyager 1 is nowhere near covering the distance of 1 light-year, let alone reaching the distance of our closest neighbor (Proxima Centauri).

As I said not even one light day away yet.

For Voyager 1 to travel 4 light-year (equal to 252,964 AU) at its current speed (17 km/s), it will take Voyager 1 to travel 6930 years. Except that voyager 1 won’t last that long, because in another 5 years, it will lose all power, therefore no more transmission of data.

Ha. How limited man's ability and knowledge is.

(Note that you may think 17 km/s not very fast.

But the fastest manned aircraft - North American X-15 - could reach speed of 7200 km/h (Mach 6.7, meaning over 6 times the speed of sound), world record since 1967. If you were to convert 17 km/s into km/h, then Voyager 1 is travelling at 61,200 km/h).

Getting nowhere fast.

Now my turn. Gabriel came from the throne of God beyond the observable universe and got here before Daniel stopped praying!!

If this is true, then how do you expect water to travel from the Alpha Centauri star system or from the Sirius star system?

With God, it is nothing.

No matter what you make think, water cannot travel that distance.

Hey, when a window/portal is opened, down comes the water. It doesn't ask whether it just came through time and space!