Genuine question for Creationists

[�� Saint Atheist ��]

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Since we are all inside the same Universe (I believe this is obvious...what a way to start a question...this parentheses is taking too long...) and thus have never been subjected to an other form, hypothetically, of "natural creation" or "design", how can you justify that the Universe is intelligently designed such that it appoints to a God?
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If I am this supernatural being and I taste the most horrible cupcake ever made, but for human beings it is the BEST CUPCAKE they ever made, but then I travel to some other universe (This is a kind of fiction to justify my point) and taste some other cupcake, which is comparably much better than man's best cupcake, so I am in a position to compare both cupcakes. One is horrid and the other is tasty.
But of course humans are not supernatural beings and we can't "taste cupcakes out of this universe", so we have nothing to compare mankind's cupcakes to. They are just "mankind's cupcakes". Synonymously, we have no other universe we can compare this one to, so we, as creatures subjected to only this universe, have a tendency to view it as "orderly" and "designed", when we actually don't have anything to compare it to.
Opinions? Thanks in advance.

 

[rusra02]

There is no evidence of another universe, so the evidence we do see is what we rightly draw conclusions from. A person sees a house, or the ruins of an ancient temple, and rightly concludes an intelligent designer is responsible. The Bible states this simple truth; " Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God." (Hebrew 3:4)
Somehow, that simple yet irrefutable logic gets lost on those who do not want there to be an intelligent Designer, IMO.

 

[RichardParker]

There is no evidence of another universe, so the evidence we do see is what we rightly draw conclusions from. A person sees a house, or the ruins of an ancient temple, and rightly concludes an intelligent designer is responsible. The Bible states this simple truth; " Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God." (Hebrew 3:4)
Somehow, that simple yet irrefutable logic gets lost on those who do not want there to be an intelligent Designer, IMO.

Your analogy fails, exactly because of the things stated in the original poste.
You have other houses and buildings to compare this house to! And you have naturally occuring structures to compare this house to, as well.
You also know about the mechanisms that occure naturally, and you know of buildings artificially built.
You have a huge body of examples where you can compare the house to, and a huge amount of mechanisms to compare to each other, to make a conclusion about the house.
Where are your comparitive universes to compare to?
You know how an artificially designed structure (a house) looks like, vs. a non-artificially build one (random pile of rocks).
So, you claim that this universe is intelligently designed, so what universe did you compare it to? How would a universe look like, that wasn't intelligently designed?

 

[rusra02]

Your analogy fails, exactly because of the things stated in the original poste.
You have other houses and buildings to compare this house to! And you have naturally occuring structures to compare this house to, as well.
You also know about the mechanisms that occure naturally, and you know of buildings artificially built.
You have a huge body of examples where you can compare the house to, and a huge amount of mechanisms to compare to each other, to make a conclusion about the house.
Where are your comparitive universes to compare to?
You know how an artificially designed structure (a house) looks like, vs. a non-artificially build one (random pile of rocks).
So, you claim that this universe is intelligently designed, so what universe did you compare it to? How would a universe look like, that wasn't intelligently designed?

Our perception of what is designed or not designed is not based on some fantasy, such as a universe we conjure in our imagination. The known universe displays design. We assume a model of the solar system requires an intelligent maker. So does the real thing. I believe the Bible's logic at Hebrews 3:4 stands.

 

[RichardParker]

Our perception of what is designed or not designed is not based on some fantasy, such as a universe we conjure in our imagination. The known universe displays design. We assume a model of the solar system requires an intelligent maker. So does the real thing. I believe the Bible's logic at Hebrews 3:4 stands.

Sorry, but there is no "the bible's logic".
Logic is logic. It's not something to which everybody has his own version of.
So, you say that you don't use a way of comparison to recongnize design in the universe (even though that's how we actually recognize design in reality).
Then how do you recognize it...
I mean, you've now told me how you DON'T recognize design, but I still have no idea how you do recognize it?
Just gut-feeling? Seems extremly unreliable!

 

[�� Saint Atheist ��]

I'm sorry but we really don't have any idea even at the vaguest form of how to identify intelligent design. It's impossible actually. How is nature "intelligently designed" when it is not comparable? We have no other set of natural laws to compare the ones the universe has to.
Intelligent design is completely dependant on how you see it. We're used to life as is. It's getting comfortable for us more and more. But we weren't as comfortable from the start. We had plagues. Epidemics. It's literally survival.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Our perception of what is designed or not designed is not based on some fantasy, such as a universe we conjure in our imagination. The known universe displays design. We assume a model of the solar system requires an intelligent maker. So does the real thing. I believe the Bible's logic at Hebrews 3:4 stands.

One must be able to contrast "designed" vs "not designed" and since the claim is that "everything is designed" there is no way to falsify the claim by providing an example or contingency in which the universe would not be designed.

 

[Shad]

Sorry, but there is no "the bible's logic".
Logic is logic. It's not something to which everybody has his own version of.
So, you say that you don't use a way of comparison to recongnize design in the universe (even though that's how we actually recognize design in reality).
Then how do you recognize it...
I mean, you've now told me how you DON'T recognize design, but I still have no idea how you do recognize it?
Just gut-feeling? Seems extremly unreliable!

They are using circular reasoning. They need to inject design of objects we know are designed into nature in order to conclude nature is designed. However in academia we conclude an object is designed by comparing it to nature. They skip this step due to the injection of design into the argument which is supposedly proving design.

 

[�� Saint Atheist ��]

Exactly. I don't see myself in an intelligently designed universe. I see myself in a universe.
IMHO.

"We assume a model of the solar system requires an intelligent maker. So does the real thing."

Well why do you deduce a fact from an assumption?

 

[Tabb]

I think Christians always end on the short end in this argument because they always fall back on their bible to give you the proof in their defence. It's an easy win for their detractors when the expert witnesses consist of the motley crew that put out that piece of work. They seem to believe in the book more than they do in God.
I look at this argument in a different light. I will acknowledge anything that science proposes as its theory of creation as a good possibility and that their proposals is a good educated guess as to how God did it. My belief in God does not come from anyone's book. God to me is an intelligent force that is totally beyond anyone's compression and science actually has the best understanding of how he does it.
Now this point of view now brings our argument down to everything happens by coincidence or there is an intelligent force that is in play. Coincidence, I think not.

 

[Pegg]

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Since we are all inside the same Universe (I believe this is obvious...what a way to start a question...this parentheses is taking too long...) and thus have never been subjected to an other form, hypothetically, of "natural creation" or "design", how can you justify that the Universe is intelligently designed such that it appoints to a God?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I am this supernatural being and I taste the most horrible cupcake ever made, but for human beings it is the BEST CUPCAKE they ever made, but then I travel to some other universe (This is a kind of fiction to justify my point) and taste some other cupcake, which is comparably much better than man's best cupcake, so I am in a position to compare both cupcakes. One is horrid and the other is tasty.
But of course humans are not supernatural beings and we can't "taste cupcakes out of this universe", so we have nothing to compare mankind's cupcakes to. They are just "mankind's cupcakes". Synonymously, we have no other universe we can compare this one to, so we, as creatures subjected to only this universe, have a tendency to view it as "orderly" and "designed", when we actually don't have anything to compare it to.
Opinions? Thanks in advance.

reproduction shows order... legs, arms, ears, eyes etc always appear in the same location. How could something disorganised and unregulated produce so many things with such precision?

I cant imaging the precision of reproduction could be any more perfect and certainly couldnt occur without something to dictate how.

 

[LuisDantas]

reproduction shows order... legs, arms, ears, eyes etc always appear in the same location.

That is factually not true. Deviations from the usual placement are considerably rarer in humans than in crustaceans, but hardly unknown altogether. Their rarity only shows how much more of an adaptation disadvantage those deviations are for us.

How could something disorganised and unregulated produce so many things with such precision?

It is exactly because it is hardly precise that it produces so many things. Then natural selection directs the results into relatively stable branches, time and again.

I cant imaging the precision of reproduction could be any more perfect

Yet it is just so patently imperfect that such imagining is no challenge at all. Have you ever seen an anencephalus?

and certainly couldnt occur without something to dictate how.

That something is natural selection. You may see a divine will behind it if you are so inclined, of course.

 

[Pegg]

That something is natural selection. You may see a divine will behind it if you are so inclined, of course.

i think it has more to do with DNA then theory

 

[RichardParker]

reproduction shows order... legs, arms, ears, eyes etc always appear in the same location.

No.
Actually, most organisms don't have any of those things.
Or do you mean inside a species? Sure, individual life-forms fallow the developmental path of their parents. And one might call that order, sure.
So what. Many things in nature have order, for which we have perfectly natural explanations. What does order in a natural system tell you, aside simply the fact that it has order?

How could something disorganised and unregulated produce so many things with such precision?

Well, there are many different ways how disorganized things can become organized.
In the case of life it is related to chemistry and biochemistry, and on a larger, prolonged scale evolution and natural selection.

I cant imaging the precision of reproduction could be any more perfect and certainly couldnt occur without something to dictate how.

Really? I can think of plenty of ways this process could be more "perfect"!
Actually, the process of reproduction is an extremly messy, and dangerous thing, which has all the marks of a patchwork of evolution. It works good enough to keep a species going, but all in all it's a terribly innefficiant and badly constructed process.
So, if we actually assumed (for no justifiable reason, but let's just play along for a moment), that life fallows a dictate from some designer, it's an extremly poorly thought out dictate.

 

[rusra02]

One must be able to contrast "designed" vs "not designed" and since the claim is that "everything is designed" there is no way to falsify the claim by providing an example or contingency in which the universe would not be designed.

A child sees a toy fire engine on the sidewalk.
"Who made this fire engine?" He asks daddy.
"Why son, we have no evidence that anyone made that fire engine. We must first find a fire engine that was not designed to prove that this one was."
Child: "You talk funny, Daddy. But, who made the fire engine?"

 

[Awkward Fingers]

A child sees a toy fire engine on the sidewalk.
"Who made this fire engine?" He asks daddy.
"Why son, we have no evidence that anyone made that fire engine. We must first find a fire engine that was not designed to prove that this one was."
Child: "You talk funny, Daddy. But, who made the fire engine?"

So how do YOU identify design?

 

[Draka]

A child sees a toy fire engine on the sidewalk.
"Who made this fire engine?" He asks daddy.
"Why son, we have no evidence that anyone made that fire engine. We must first find a fire engine that was not designed to prove that this one was."
Child: "You talk funny, Daddy. But, who made the fire engine?"

Again, you use something you know to be made and can compare to others like it. The simple point has been made, that you adamantly refuse to acknowledge, that we know of no other universe to compare this one to to give us any real idea as to whether this one was "created" or not.

Humans, our brains, the way our minds naturally works...we look for patterns, for symmetry, for order in chaos. It is our nature. To try to see order when there may be actually none at all. So how can one claim, with any real certainty, that the universe was designed, especially when there is no other known universe to compare it to?

 

[rusra02]

So how do YOU identify design?

How does the child know the toy fire engine was designed? How does one know a name carved in a tree did not just happen? Or that a house had an intelligent designer? The things produced, that we see and use, have form, function, beauty, and utility. I believe it is as Romans 1:19,20 says; "because what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. *For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [those who deny God] are inexcusable."

 

[Awkward Fingers]

How does the child know the toy fire engine was designed? How does one know a name carved in a tree did not just happen? Or that a house had an intelligent designer? The things produced, that we see and use, have form, function, beauty, and utility. I believe it is as Romans 1:19,20 says; "because what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. *For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [those who deny God] are inexcusable."

Wonderful. Now lets try answering the actual question.
How do you differentiate designed things from natural things when YOU see them?

 

[RichardParker]

A child sees a toy fire engine on the sidewalk.
"Who made this fire engine?" He asks daddy.
"Why son, we have no evidence that anyone made that fire engine. We must first find a fire engine that was not designed to prove that this one was."
Child: "You talk funny, Daddy. But, who made the fire engine?"

Wait... the father answers:
"We have no evidence that anyone made that fire engine"?
Really?
Is this guy stupid?
Of course we have evidence for that! We have millions of fire engins all over the world and they are ALL designed and artificially made!
...
Sooooo... are you saying this is the same for life?
So, do we have hundersts or thousands of different life-versions, where we know that they have all been designed?
Because that's what you are saying here. You are saying that life is equal to the fire engine. Therefore, you are saying that we have plenty of examples of life being artificially made, and none being naturally made.
...
Unfortunatelly for you, life seems to occure mainly naturally. So... your analogy fails big times.