George Zimmerman Verdict: NOT GUILTY

[Revoltingest]

There's not nearly enough information provided in that article for the rest of us to just simply nod our heads and say "yeah, that's right".

Even if it were a blatant example of a racist double standard, this is a comparison of only 2 cases. Anyone who has spent much time in court knows that justice is a crap shoot, whether a bench or jury trial, so one cannot generalize from so little data. I've no doubt that racism afflicts law enforcement & the courts, but this does not mean that every case suffers from it.

 

[Alceste]

There's not nearly enough information provided in that article for the rest of us to just simply nod our heads and say "yeah, that's right".

Sure there is. The cases are nearly identical, except that the black man who tried to walk away got convicted and the non-black guy who didn't got off Scott free. Both killers were physically attacked. Both claim they feared for their lives. Both were armed and provoked the confrontation that led to someone else's death. Only one tried to walk away and end the confrontation before it escalated into physical violence. (As you probably would too if you were 71 years old and 80 pounds lighter than your opponent). Only one was convicted of a crime: self-defense while black, I think it's called. It only applies when your attacker isn't black. If you're both black, nobody gives a ****.

By comparing these two cases, you can begin to understand why black people are statistically over-represented in your prisons. If you want to, that is.

 

[Alceste]

Even if it were a blatant example of a racist double standard, this is a comparison of only 2 cases. Anyone who has spent much time in court knows that justice is a crap shoot, whether a bench or jury trial, so one cannot generalize from so little data. I've no doubt that racism afflicts law enforcement & the courts, but this does not mean that every case suffers from it.

A crap shoot with weighted dice. The jury that convicted Dooley only deliberated for 90 minutes. He'll be in prison for 30 years if he lives that long. He was a school bus driver and a ham radio nerd.

 

[4consideration]

Even if it were a blatant example of a racist double standard, this is a comparison of only 2 cases. Anyone who has spent much time in court knows that justice is a crap shoot, whether a bench or jury trial, so one cannot generalize from so little data. I've no doubt that racism afflicts law enforcement & the courts, but this does not mean that every case suffers from it.

I've no doubt that racism in people across the board still exists. I have yet to see actual evidence of it in these two verdicts.

Here's another article on the second case mentioned in this thread.

(I wrote two responses that I didn't save and lost when I went to post it, and I'm hurrying to log off now. The other responses were written better.)

Jury finds Trevor Dooley guilty in manslaughter case | Tampa Bay Times

Two obvious differences I see in these two cases presently be discussed here.

1. According to the article above, the jury in the Dooley case was multiracial. I think the first article failed to mention that.

2. The Dooley case had several eye-witnesses that the jury apparently found to be credible witnesses.

edit: The defendant was apparently 69 at the time of the incident, and 71 at the time of the trial.

 

[Alceste]

I've no doubt that racism in people across the board still exists. I have yet to see actual evidence of it in these two verdicts.

Here's another article on the second case mentioned in this thread.

(I wrote two responses that I didn't save and lost when I went to post it, and I'm hurrying to log off now. The other responses were written better.)

Jury finds Trevor Dooley guilty in manslaughter case | Tampa Bay Times

Two obvious differences I see in these two cases presently be discussed here.

1. According to the article above, the jury in the Dooley case was multiracial. I think the first article failed to mention that.

2. The Dooley case had several eye-witnesses that the jury apparently found to be credible witnesses.

I don't think 2 is a difference. The Zimmerman thing had lots of witnesses too, but it's not that big a deal anyway because both men confessed and the basic facts were not in dispute.

As to number one, since I've been hearing that half-Argentinian is not considered "white" in Florida, I think I need to know what "multi-racial" means. I also don't know what the ethnic make-up of the Zimmerman jury was so I don't know if they're different.

 

[4consideration]

I don't think 2 is a difference. The Zimmerman thing had lots of witnesses too, but it's not that big a deal anyway because both men confessed and the basic facts were not in dispute.

As to number one, since I've been hearing that half-Argentinian is not considered "white" in Florida, I think I need to know what "multi-racial" means. I also don't know what the ethnic make-up of the Zimmerman jury was so I don't know if they're different.

I could be wrong. I have not followed the Zimmerman case in the media, nor did I watch the actual trial. I thought I saw some reference to the Zimmerman jury makeup, and misunderstood that to have already been discussed as being the case. If so, I'll concede that the racial makeup of the jury is not different, if it is the same or even close.

Since the discuss is involving the issue od racism, does anyone know for sure about the racial mix?

I mentioned eye-witnessed, not other types of witnesses. Are you saying that there were eye-witnesses to the actual shooting in the Zimmerman case? That was not my understanding.

 

[Revoltingest]

These ferriners who want to see nothing but racism in the US court system should consider
the OJ Simpson trial. Justice was served by a multi-racial jury finding him not guilty.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I don't think 2 is a difference. The Zimmerman thing had lots of witnesses too, but it's not that big a deal anyway because both men confessed and the basic facts were not in dispute.

As to number one, since I've been hearing that half-Argentinian is not considered "white" in Florida, I think I need to know what "multi-racial" means. I also don't know what the ethnic make-up of the Zimmerman jury was so I don't know if they're different.

It's not that hard to figure out. President Obama is half-white yet he's a black man. It's basically the same principle in effect with GZ. Though it's up for debate if he's even half-white

 

[Poisonshady313]

Both were armed and provoked the confrontation that led to someone else's death.

I disagree.

Nobody has provided evidence that Zimmerman threw the first punch, or that he even approached Trayvon in such a way that would have justified Trayvon throwing the first punch.

In fact, nobody has proven that Zimmerman approached Trayvon at all.

According to Zimmerman, he was on his way back to his truck when Trayvon approached him.

Do you know of any evidence that shows this isn't the case?

 

[esmith]

I'm perfectly happy to use the phrase "non-black" if nobody can agree what a "white person" is. If you attack while black and get killed, your killer is 100% innocent. If you attack a black man and get killed, your killer is 100% guilty.

Justice in Florida hasn't changed much over the years, has it?

And if a black person kills another black person it is no big thing, move along here nothing to see as far as the likes of Al Sharpton and those that follow his publicity speeches are concerned. It would seem that those that see a racist around every corner are totally unconcerned about the epidemic minority on minority killings.

 

[Alceste]

I disagree.

Nobody has provided evidence that Zimmerman threw the first punch, or that he even approached Trayvon in such a way that would have justified Trayvon throwing the first punch.

In fact, nobody has proven that Zimmerman approached Trayvon at all.

According to Zimmerman, he was on his way back to his truck when Trayvon approached him.

Do you know of any evidence that shows this isn't the case?

Yeah, I watched a video of him reenacting the entire evening for the police the day after the shooting, before he hired a lawyer. He was stalking the guy. The police told him not to get out of his car and follow, but he did. He says he lost sight of him and was doubling back to wait for the police when they spotted each other on the way back. Martin asked him what his problem was, then attacked him (Zimmerman says it was out of the blue in the video, but I seriously doubt that - he was trying to shine the best possible light on himself.)

I don't know what he said happened after he got a lawyer, but I gather it was different, but not all that different.

Having been chased around by a creepy dude myself, I call that a pretty clear case of provocation, and an "approach". If I had felt strong enough to confront the man who was following me, I probably would have, but I was a 13 year old girl and he was a grown man, so I skedaddled.

According to Zimmerman, when Martin confronted him, he asked "Do you have some kind of problem?" implying that he was very aware Zimmerman had been following him around. If you want to split hairs and not call stalking somebody a form of "approach", then fine, but it's still a pretty clear case of provocation.

 

[Alceste]

And if a black person kills another black person it is no big thing, move along here nothing to see as far as the likes of Al Sharpton and those that follow his publicity speeches are concerned. It would seem that those that see a racist around every corner are totally unconcerned about the epidemic minority on minority killings.

Al who?

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Who wants to bet money that the jury in both cases was mostly non-black (if we have to split hairs about whether half-Argentinian half-Whites are white)?

I honestly don't know, so it's an honest bet.

Zimmerman's jury was all-white.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

And if a black person kills another black person it is no big thing, move along here nothing to see as far as the likes of Al Sharpton and those that follow his publicity speeches are concerned. It would seem that those that see a racist around every corner are totally unconcerned about the epidemic minority on minority killings.

Post proof or retract.

 

[Revoltingest]

Post proof or retract.

A cursory survey of famous US murders in the last several years shows a paucity....well, none....of black on black prosecutions. There is far less interest in the tremendous number of such murders occurring hourly in Detroit, Chicago, St Louis, Flint, Saginaw, etc.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

A cursory survey of famous US murders in the last several years shows a paucity....well, none....of black on black prosecutions. There is far less interest in the tremendous number of such murders occurring hourly in Detroit, Chicago, St Louis, Flint, Saginaw, etc.

Again, this begs the question. And even if it were true, the bigger question would be WHY.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Now you're just being ridiculous. Did you see any of the maps of the neighborhood? Did you listen to any of the testimony? He was already inside the neighborhood when Zimmerman saw him. He didn't see him stepping out of the 7-11. He saw him on the grass, taking his time in the rain as if he were checking out a place he was going to rob. Not a terribly unreasonable suspicion... the neighborhood had a history of being robbed. That's why he called the cops to begin with.

Trayvon wasn't shot running away. He wasn't shot while both guys were standing and facing each other. He was shot while he was straddling Zimmerman, punching him in the face and slamming his head into the ground. At that point, Zimmerman was reasonably afraid that he might die. Zimmerman didn't choose to pick that fight. But he chose to end it.

In my opinion, Zimmerman started the fight when he started stalking the teenager. If he was suspicious of Trayvon's activity, call the cops and go home. Isn't that what a neighbhourhood watchman is supposed to do, rather than acting as a vigilante? Trayvon would probably still be alive today if Zimmerman hadn't followed him in the way he did.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Revoltingest]

Again, this begs the question. And even if it were true, the bigger question would be WHY.

Actually, I was not engaging in question begging, which is an informal fallacy of a premise entailing a conclusion. You mean to "raise a question". And it is a very good question, one with many answers, eg, poor areas where they can't afford the policing they need, cultural insensitivity to violence within the group, a predilection for violence among urban poor.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I argue primarily that no evidence was presented that Zimmerman stalked Martin.
But I speculate, based on the evidence, that it was Martin who pursued & assaulted Zimmerman.


Sarcasm? I'm sorry that relying upon evidence in forming a judgement is so rare.


Are you referring to Martin's profiling of the "cracker"?
Or do you address the media profiling of the "white Hispanic"?

If some creepy dude was following me around at night, I'd refer to him with much harsher words than that!

 

[Revoltingest]

If some creepy dude was following me around at night, I'd refer to him with much harsher words than that!

And well you should. But the choice of words is a window into one's soul.