Give me a good reason for not leaving RF

[RestlessSoul]

Him? It's a boy God? Congratulations.

But no, we don't choose to not believe in gods. We acknowledge there's no adequate evidence that justifies a conclusion that any exist outside of human imagination. The dismissiveness for logic by theists in debate is due to the recognition that atheists are correct. Theism is a non-rational belief.

I’m willing to concede that faith in God is not rational, in the sense that it isn’t predicated on logic or reason; not in my case, anyway.

But right here is the point where communication between believers and atheists so often breaks down; if one party is so wedded to logic and reason as to hold that these are the only tools for deciding what is real, then dialogue between that person, and one who has embarked on a spiritual journey, becomes almost impossible. We’re just talking completely different languages from that point, and begin talking across each other.

I would contend that for a non believer to understand what a believer means, when saying that God is at the centre of their life, they must learn to speak the language of the heart.

 

[F1fan]

I’m willing to concede that faith in God is not rational, in the sense that it isn’t predicated on logic or reason; not in my case, anyway.

But right here is the point where communication between believers and atheists so often breaks down; if one party is so wedded to logic and reason as to hold that these are the only tools for deciding what is real, then dialogue between that person, and one who has embarked on a spiritual journey, becomes almost impossible. We’re just talking completely different languages from that point, and begin talking across each other.

A non-rational approach (faith) is exceptionally unreliable. It offers no actual means or process to decide anything if your intention is to have truth. There's a reason theists have chosen faith as a justification to believe is because it has no standard for truth, or reality, or even moral/ethical considerations.

I'd be very wary about categorizing religious belief as spiritual because there is a lot of religious belief that is quite irrational, nasty, vile, and even criminal. A spiritual journey (which I suggest doesn't mean it's necessarily religious) has to be guided by certain virtues, and actually help the individual find balance in life. Spirituality isn't just a head full of irrational concepts that define the ego.

I would contend that for a non believer to understand what a believer means, when saying that God is at the centre of their life, they must learn to speak the language of the heart.

This is disingenuous, selfish, and passive aggressive. I say that because you're representing believers in this sentences and suggesting the "language of the heart" is limited to believers and non-believers are somehow less or deficient. There are many theists who are immoral, insensitive, cruel, corrupt, etc. so we can observe that being religious guarantees no virtues nor depth of character. I want theists to recognize how many atheists are decent people, and many have even more decency than some theists.

If you want atheists to understand theists then I suggest you don't try to shut out the decency of many atheists. Let's note that studies show that religiousness has a biological component, and about 85% of humans have this "wired for god" trait. That leaves the rest typically atheists. Non-theists are going to be able to "get" theists any more than theists will "get" non-belief.

What we do have left is the objective assessment of religious beliefs: are they rational, logical, factual, etc. Non-believers can be objective on religious concepts in ways theists can't, and that can be explained by the motive. The theist will have a biological and social disposition to believe and will find exceptions for their beliefs that would be catastrophic in other problem solving areas of life. From what I observe theists who want to engage with atheists need to accept facts, and I say this because no amount of religious fervor and belief will eliminate the relevance of them.

 

[England my lionheart]

Right now i am in a time of pondering what RF really mean to me, of course all the good discussion with friendly outcome is a pleasant excange, and i have some very good friends in here, And this is keeping me in RF right now.

As most if not all already know, i do not have anything against Atheists who want to discuss,but to be brutally honest, all the negativity toward God or other deities that are spoken about in RF, It has come to a point where i no longer feel a need to defend my own belief, and when this is spoken about in threads, this become seen as negative. Maybe it is no fun for people to not discuss the same topic about God vs No God anymore when the believer stop defending their belief.?

To me RF has been a free area where i can speak openly and with no worries, but this is no longer how i see it.
It is more of a pain to come in to RF this days. and RF has become more and more boring place to be.

So please give me a honest reason why I should stay.

if you leave you have lost any chance of getting a beer out of sunstone which is a rare occurrence but really I hope you stay,just be choosy about the forums.

 

[Spirit of Light]

if you leave you have lost any chance of getting a beer out of sunstone which is a rare occurrence but really I hope you stay,just be choosy about the forums.

I have desides to stay but be a bit picky who i chose to discuss with

 

[England my lionheart]

I hav3 desides to stay but be a bit picky who i chose to discuss with

good plan

 

[Spirit of Light]

good plan

RF has more or less become a family to me, so very difficult to leave

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I hav3 desides to stay but be a bit picky who i chose to discuss with

That'll take some practice.

 

[England my lionheart]

RF has more or less become a family to me, so very difficult to leave

good,it’s pretty much like that

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

To me RF has been a free area where i can speak openly and with no worries, but this is no longer how i see it.
It is more of a pain to come in to RF this days. and RF has become more and more boring place to be.

I do not understand. Whether or not you are pained or bored has nothing to do with whether or not you can speak openly. As for being worried, it's not at all clear why. If you wish to avoid disagreement, avoid debate forums or, at the very least, limit your participation to same-faith-only discussions. And, of course, if your goal is to shield yourself from "all the negativity toward God or other deities," acknowledge that this is entirely your issue and, either, learn to tolerate it or leave.

So please give me a honest reason why I should stay.

With all due respect, please give me an honest reason why I should court your continued participation?

 

[Truthseeker]

I think you may be interested in these verses, two from the Bhagavad Gita, and a passage from Paradise Lost. Both, from different worlds almost, describe visions of divinity, in strikingly similar terms (the language of Paradise Lost is a little arcane to modern English ears, and I know English is not your first language. Worth a little effort though imo).

BG 11 vs 12

If a thousand suns
had risen
in the sky
all at once,
such brilliance
would be the brilliance
of that great self

BG 11 vs 17

I see you,
who are hard to see,
completely, beyond measure.
With the light of a sun
whose fire is blazing,
you shine everywhere-
a mountain of light,
with crown, club, and discuss.

PL III 374-383

…Author of all being,
Fountain of light, thyself invisible
Amidst the glorious brightness where thou sitt’st
Throned inaccessible, but when though shad’st
The full blaze of thy beams, and through a cloud
Drawn round about thee like a radiant shrine,
Dark with excessive bright thy skirts appear,
Yet dazzle Heav’n, that brightest Seraphim
Approach not, but with wings veil their eyes.

Amazing how you keep coming up with appropriate quotes for each occasion, and from different sources!

 

[Truthseeker]

I have desided to stay in RF.

Great news!

Trailblazer thinks you're from Norway. Is that true? That's amazing to me if true. Meandflower told me she is Norwegian. Two favorites of mine.

 

[Truthseeker]

I do not understand. Whether or not you are pained or bored has nothing to do with whether or not you can speak openly. As for being worried, it's not at all clear why. If you wish to avoid disagreement, avoid debate forums or, at the very least, limit your participation to same-faith-only discussions. And, of course, if your goal is to shield yourself from "all the negativity toward God or other deities," acknowledge that this is entirely your issue and, either, learn to tolerate it or leave.


With all due respect, please give me an honest reason why I should court your continued participation?

This reply is out of date. He has decided to stay. Look at his further posts for more illumination for your further understanding.

 

[Riders]

Right now i am in a time of pondering what RF really mean to me, of course all the good discussion with friendly outcome is a pleasant excange, and i have some very good friends in here, And this is keeping me in RF right now.

As most if not all already know, i do not have anything against Atheists who want to discuss,but to be brutally honest, all the negativity toward God or other deities that are spoken about in RF, It has come to a point where i no longer feel a need to defend my own belief, and when this is spoken about in threads, this become seen as negative. Maybe it is no fun for people to not discuss the same topic about God vs No God anymore when the believer stop defending their belief.?

To me RF has been a free area where i can speak openly and with no worries, but this is no longer how i see it.
It is more of a pain to come in to RF this days. and RF has become more and more boring place to be.

So please give me a honest reason why I should stay.

I don't believe it's my or anyone's job to tell you why to stay. I personally don't like to argue and or be confronted by those who disagree with me. But I use my journal more then anything and I like to post in different areas that are not about debate. I get more out of RF that way and sometimes I like political forums.

 

[Riders]

As far as i know, i am the only sufi here might be a bit lonely and boring to only speak with my self But i get your point

I've gone to 3 classes on Rumi poetry at Cosmic Cafe it's fun and I like his poetry.

 

[Riders]

Maybe you should stick to the Interfaith board for awhile to give yourself a break. You see, in some of these debates, a lot of atheists understand logic very well, and you have to debate on their level to appeal to them - either that, or be ready to change some of your ideas as part of intellectual honesty, or just develop a very very thick skin. I'm afraid that sharing your beliefs with them, isn't always what they're looking for. They're looking for a bit more explanation that that, and proofs.

I don't like debate because I don't want to be questioned and confronted. I like other forums health music the arts journals other ones even politics.

 

[Truthseeker]

I duck and dodge RF all the time. I'm an atheist, but I don't debate, I dissent. The negativity, and repetitious debating makes me check out of here. But I always find interesting reasons to come back.

I think atheism is a philosophical position as much as theism is. Both positions are about proof. There is no evidence for atheism, nor theism as I see it.

Yes, if you look at it logically or scientifically there is no real proof either way. I don't like debating, but sometimes I slip into it anyway.

My aim at RF is to understand as many different perspectives I can. If your God doesn't have issues with me then I have no issues with such God.

It's good to see an atheist with your attitude. I erroneously thought just about everyone here was here just to influence others.

 

[Truthseeker]

This is the form of atheists i like, who who accept that there are many answers and it make you curious to understand more

Ditto.

 

[RestlessSoul]

A non-rational approach (faith) is exceptionally unreliable. It offers no actual means or process to decide anything if your intention is to have truth. There's a reason theists have chosen faith as a justification to believe is because it has no standard for truth, or reality, or even moral/ethical considerations.

I'd be very wary about categorizing religious belief as spiritual because there is a lot of religious belief that is quite irrational, nasty, vile, and even criminal. A spiritual journey (which I suggest doesn't mean it's necessarily religious) has to be guided by certain virtues, and actually help the individual find balance in life. Spirituality isn't just a head full of irrational concepts that define the ego.


This is disingenuous, selfish, and passive aggressive. I say that because you're representing believers in this sentences and suggesting the "language of the heart" is limited to believers and non-believers are somehow less or deficient. There are many theists who are immoral, insensitive, cruel, corrupt, etc. so we can observe that being religious guarantees no virtues nor depth of character. I want theists to recognize how many atheists are decent people, and many have even more decency than some theists.

If you want atheists to understand theists then I suggest you don't try to shut out the decency of many atheists. Let's note that studies show that religiousness has a biological component, and about 85% of humans have this "wired for god" trait. That leaves the rest typically atheists. Non-theists are going to be able to "get" theists any more than theists will "get" non-belief.

What we do have left is the objective assessment of religious beliefs: are they rational, logical, factual, etc. Non-believers can be objective on religious concepts in ways theists can't, and that can be explained by the motive. The theist will have a biological and social disposition to believe and will find exceptions for their beliefs that would be catastrophic in other problem solving areas of life. From what I observe theists who want to engage with atheists need to accept facts, and I say this because no amount of religious fervor and belief will eliminate the relevance of them.

There you go again with your "rational, logical, factual" mantra. And there you go again, claiming objective assessment of something you admit is alien to you.

I don't think we struggle to communicate because we have different opinions or perspectives, nor because we have different biological and social conditioning - in fact I reject the latter totally, as I'm pretty sure we're both human. But any understanding between us will be a one way street, if you cannot set your reliance on logic and reason aside for just long enough to entertain the possibility that there may be other ways of seeing, knowing, and understanding the world.

I am interested to know what the term spiritual means to you though. I agree spirituality is not the same thing as religion, nor are the two always found in the same institutions or individuals.

I don't remember saying anything that could be interpreted as moral judgement of atheists btw, so not sure why you need me to acknowledge that many atheists are decent people. Most people are essentially decent in my experience, at least until one inadvertantly steps on their toes.

 

[Truthseeker]

But any understanding between us will be a one way street, if you cannot set your reliance on logic and reason aside for just long enough to entertain the possibility that there may be other ways of seeing, knowing, and understanding the world.

Yes, indeed. Well said. I wish I said that.

 

[JustGeorge]

RF has more or less become a family to me, so very difficult to leave

That's how family is sometimes... difficult, and sometimes frustrating... but you love 'em anyways.