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Global Warming | Fact or Fiction?

How do you feel about Global Warming?

  • Global Warming is a myth and the climate will stabilize soon.

    Votes: 4 3.4%
  • Global Warming is happening but Humanity has nothing to do with it.

    Votes: 8 6.9%
  • Global Warming is happening and Humanity is partly to blame.

    Votes: 41 35.3%
  • Global Warming is happening and Humanity is mostly to blame.

    Votes: 52 44.8%
  • Global Warming is happening and Humanity is the only cause.

    Votes: 8 6.9%
  • Don’t know, don’t care.

    Votes: 3 2.6%

  • Total voters
    116

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Again, we know the climate is getting warmer... we know CO2 is a key player in that process... but we don't know what else is involved. This current warming trend is likely not just our fault... it is most likely that we are adding fuel to a fire that would otherwise be burning much lower.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't do more to reduce our impact, there are plenty of reasons that a fossil fuel economy is bad for us specifically and the planet in general. But we need to have a rational discussion about the issue, rather than a "my team vs. your team" fight about it.

wa:do
Here's my main takeaway about climate change: too many people are living in total denial and will support nothing other than a piecemeal approach to staving off a future calamity.

So we don't know "what else is involved." This is the trope tossed up by the deniers now that the case against a warming climate is becoming too difficult to support with evidence of any kind. Whatever else is involved, it doesn't matter -- we're still dead if it continues! How's that for being rational?

When historians pick through the bones and rubble of collapsed civilizations of the past, the question keeps coming up: "how did such a great civilization not see the warning signs and prevent the collapse?" Well, my theory is now, that the majority had competing groups of thoughtful people having rational discussions as they clear-cut their way out of a source of food, or farmed North African grasslands till the soil was exhausted-in the case of the Romans. The difference between then and now, is there is that civilization is global, and there are no undiscovered territories to repeat the process of overpopulation and overconsumption of available resources. If humans are hardwired to want more than nature can provide, the human race is also hardwired to drive itself to extinction.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
You may want to read, for example thework of Bjørn Lomborg. First because he believes AGW is happening and is dangerous and second because his background is in economics/social sciences.
Why would you suggest him? I am familiar with Bjorn Lomborg, and unless his spiel has changed recently, he doesn't deny the science behind AGW theory, but instead makes a ludicrous argument that the solution should be based solely on adaptation. He doesn't present clear answers to deal with costs of adaptation, which will inevitably increase as greenhouse gas levels rise. So, someone like Lomborg is the card the oil lobby plays to try to influence people who don't buy the argument that CO2 levels will stop increasing on their own for reasons unknown, or that rising greenhouse gas levels have no connection to rising temperatures.

Many climate scientists lack the background or ability to propose "cures" other than very general ones, let alone weigh costs. To do that requires a whole different background, and dialogue. Economists and social scientists have to rely on the work of climate scientists to identify the problems, and both have to work with the more applied environmental scientists to first develop possible solutions, and then weigh the costs and benefits.
There are so many unknowns in understanding ecological processes that it's likely no one can speak with authority about how to solve the problems. It may be just a matter of toss up some ideas and see what works. I follow what James Hansen says very closely, but I notice of late that many experts in the earth sciences are dumping cold water on a carbon sequestration method he was getting enthusiastic about a year or two ago -- Biochar. But, the problem is that natural carbon sequestration moves very slowly compared to the processes that cause periodic spikes in carbon levels...like us! So, we won't be out of the woods until or unless someone comes up with a feasible carbon sequestration idea that doesn't cause more harm than good....as many proposed so far do.

The climate scientists are in the best position to talk about the cost of inaction, and they are essential for understanding how effective this or that action will be, but aren't really in a position to say what the effects will be on the global economy, 3rd world (areas of high poverty rates may be greatly effected by some of the proposed soluations), etc.
Yes, but the evidence is consistent that rising temperatures in the hot zones will lead to massive crop failure, and eventually impossible to grow food completely. The economists who are up to speed on this issue, are very much in agreement that adaptation depends on a nation's wealth to try to adapt to climate change. So, in the Tropics, Australia may be able to carry on in spite of droughts and floods and agricultural devastation, but East Africa and Sub-Sahara Africa will not be able to handle the shock.
But when it comes to fear tactics and emotional appeals, I think the environmentalists have the skeptics/deniers beat. I've corresponded with Christy once or twice to ask about certain things. Despite not knowing me or knowing whether I was looking to twist his words, he was cordial and helpful. I've written to several other climate scientists, and I never heard back from most (including Spencer). I think this is probably a reflection of the political climate (pun intended).
My first thought is that the most prominent climatologists who receive frequent death threats - like Phil Jones and Hansen, probably are going to be the most difficult to contact for security reasons alone.

When it comes to fear tactics -- after I learned a little about this issue, I was thinking the exact opposite -- that most of them sugarcoat their message, following some doctrine that Al Gore came up with several years ago -- that the message should not appear too scary, and there has to be easy solutions provided or people will tune out. Gore may be right, but liberal solutions can easily be taken apart by the skeptics because of their costs and limited value. Also, if you notice, almost none of the prominent climatologists have even bothered making projections past 2100. Why not? I know that, just like forecasting the weather, predicting climate change further into the future will become less accurate; but the general trend of today is almost certain to make the World ice-free by 2300...depending mostly on just how much carbon is presently sequestered in permafrost and the Arctic Ocean. If we include that huge scale of sea level rise with loss of our productive land, and a continued increase in greenhouse gas levels, the dire conclusions of James Lovelock and E.O. Wilson, that humanity only has 200 years or so before extinction, have to be taken seriously. And that certainly is a road that Hansen, Jones and others don't want to take their audience along.

I began writing to professors to ask about things I was researching before I began my undergrad studies, and I still do. The vast majority are very helpful, or at least will respond that they don't know the answer and point me elsewhere. I think it's sad that climate science has, thanks to all sides (political and ideological), become such a battlefield where one's source code and data has to be hidden for fear mistakes might be found in one's work.
I don't have the book:"Merchants of Doubt" by Naomi Oreskes, but I've listened to a few of her interviews and lectures about the history of climate change denial, and her conclusion is that climate change wasn't a controversial issue until the oil industry hired the lobbyists for the tobacco industry to stall any changes that might reduce the sales of oil (and coal). One of the first places they turned to was the George C. Marshall Institute, which became the hotbed of activity for the kind of science the right wing wanted after Marshall enlisted the bomb builders and nuclear scientists of the Cold War to lobby on behalf of Ronald Reagan's star wars initiative. Some of those scientists, like the late Fred Singer, went from lobbying on behalf of SDI to smoking to denying global warming. I don't know if Spencer goes back to SDI, but he is on the board at the Marshall Institute.
A child would, but an expert might realize the possible fallacy in assuming a malthusian stance on resources. Since Malthus, there have always been those who argue that we will run out of resources by X date. And so far, they've all been wrong, mainly for one reason: they underestimate human technological adaptivity and ingenuity. The population on earth today would be dying out on every continent en masse in Malthus' day. But humans have an amazing ability to make resources out of things which weren't, from wind to sun to rocks in the ground (uranium).
The way I see it, Malthus's basic theory may still be sound and we haven't proven it wrong yet because the predicted dates of resource depletion have fallen short. If we use the concept of ecological footprint as a guide, we have to somehow calculate our land and resource use, along with our impact on nature, to determine whether our economic aspirations can be sustained by what the nature's economy can provide for us. No need saying that's a hard calculation to make; and that's what most of the critics hone in on -- but I think the basic principle should be the foundation for policy making, not an afterthought as it is now, since it appears that we are 1.5 times the global carrying capacity, and because of environment degradation and both renewable and non-renewable resource overconsumption, that number can only increase over time until it reaches the level predicted by Malthus. Robert Malthus's predictions mostly focused on England, and he may have been right about England's and Europe's collapse and disintegration into cannibalism, if it wasn't for mass migration to the New World, and the importing of large quantities of grains from the colonies. These were circumstances not factored in by Malthus.

Now, let's look at the present. There are at least 2 billion people now in the world who are living below the daily recommended level of calorie-consumption (twice as many as 10 years ago); so all of the bloviating about how the wonderful Green Revolution saved the World is largely hot air. The agribusiness that got started in the 60's, under the label of saving poor nations from starvation, has ended subsistence agriculture and replaced it with growing cash crops for export...even in Africa now. I came across an online lecture by economist Raj Patel, who is a vocal critic of globalism and agribusiness, and takes apart a lot of the myths of the Green Revolution in his essay: Can The World Feed 10 Billion?
The biggest problem of modern agriculture is that its monocroping and intensive use of pesticides and fertilizers degrades the land, so that in a matter of decades, the topsoil will be used up and blown away; and the generation of farmers who know how to rotate crops and live within the limits of what the land is able to provide, are mostly gone -- so we have burned that bridge behind us! I'm afraid Malthusian dire predictions are not wrong, they have merely been delayed by human efforts to extract more from the land than previous generations were capable of doing.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
I didn't know that. That's very interesting, so thank you. It's certainly true that even after universities and the academic establishment started to realize that excluding roughly half the population from its ranks was just pure, bigoted, nonsense, it took a long time for women to gain ground at all, and particularly in the sciences (for a number of reasons, including, I believe, sexism but also because women had already acquired a voice elsewhere through feminist pioneers, authors, etc.). I found it interesting that in Cynthia Eller's very thorough critique of the mother goddess and prehistoric matriarchy theory (which was somewhat harsh, but I think Rosemary Radford Ruether's take in Goddesses and the Divine Feminine was accurate: it may be harsh but it's accurate) that women anthropologists and archaeologists reacted against Marija Gimbutas because they felt that her radical ideas would allow male archaeologists, anthropologists, etc., to dismiss legitimate criticisms of largely "male" interpretation of the evidence by equating them all with Gimbutas' rather eccentric ideas. So it's interesting to here of an example such as this of the "male" perspective missing (and then rejecting) a particular point of view that is correct.



I'm not a fan of Dawkins, but that's more because the "new athiests" such as Dawkins and Hitchins have actually offered far less than the more challenging, critical, and penetrating atheists of the past, from the Existentialists to Freud and Flew. And given how much Dawkins has riding on the "selfish-gene" idea is no suprise that he would be quite against the Gaia hypothesis.
I'm running out of time to address all the points you make here, but if you've noticed, I'm not a Dawkins fan either....especially Dawkins the philosopher, who writes a book that almost plagiarizes the arguments Bertrand Russell made in his book:"Why I Am Not A Christian" without attribution. And, I'm sure he picked up stuff from his philosopher friends - Daniel Dennet and A.C. Grayling, who indulge him and probably have wasted their own time trying to develop his Meme concept. But, I also remember that Dawkins the biologist was a single-minded promoter of his selfish gene theory of natural selection, and was quick to go after any and every alternative that someone else offered up over the decades. He sparred with his long time foil - Stephen J. Gould, on Punctuated Equilibrium...which faded away, but more recently, biologists who contend that selfish genes can't explain everything, have had to go to war with him to try to advance group selection or other alternatives. I can't help noticing that one of his critics -- David Sloan Wilson, also attacks Dawkins's foray into philosophy whenever he can: "Beyond Demonic Memes: Why Richard Dawkins Is Wrong On Religion - E-Skeptic Magazine 2007"
So, I don't need proof that scientists can be less than rational or logical about their beliefs. I recall one psychologist making a point that people with high intellect (like scientists) may be more difficult to convince they are following a wrong track than more average people, who are less sure of their intellectual prowess. There is a quote somewhere that science advances when dept. heads either retire or die off. If Dawkins is wrong about his views on the possibility of group selection as a driver behind evolutionary change, he may end up being for biology what Fred Hoyle was to astrophysics -- a pillar of the community who came up with some great ideas earlier in his career, but tried to enforce an orthodoxy (in Hoyle's case opposition to a beginning of the Universe) once their theories were accepted and they became the recognized authority on the subject.

From my pov, the problem of New Atheism is mostly that atheism is not a belief position that has other beliefs to bond people together. From my observation, most atheists who do not consider religion and supernatural beliefs to be automatically damaging, and may have positive benefits, is not going to enjoy the company of atheists who are on a crusade to stamp out religion and belief in God.

The majority of movement-oriented atheists who are very active for their numbers online, and take over the small atheist and humanist meetup groups, are the dopplegangers of the religious fundamentalists. My irritation mostly deals with the fact that they do not represent the views of most atheists, and that fact could probably be demonstrated just from the apparent picture I get that there are far more atheists who belong to our local Unitarian Church, than there are who try to keep the local atheist/humanist group going. But, as they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and all of the cooperative atheist philosophers who write books get ignored by a media that is only interested in controversy.

For me, however, the problem starts with the idea of "self-regulation." The earth requires a massive energy source: the sun. And it would be one thing if this energy source was a constant. But it isn't. Everything about it and its relation to the earth fluctuates all the time, from the gravitational field which keeps us from being bombarded by cosmic rays, to the actual energy which sustains life. The change in temperature of the sun over several billion years is misleading. The effects of the sun are both cyclical and erratic and can occur on a decadal timespan to ever several thousand years. It is, however, anything but steady.
A lot may depend on the accuracy of new methods of paleoclimate research. If the Gaia Theorists are on the right track that living creatures can cooperate for their own benefit on such a wide scale as this, the changes caused by the sun, cosmic rays and asteroid impacts, and volcanism, will cause spikes in greenhouse gas levels which the biosphere will try to adjust to, but will only be able to respond very gradually. So, the upward movements of CO2 would appear more rapidly than the downward pressures of carbon sequestration -- assuming Lovelock's idea that the Earth was perfectly balanced less than 2 billion years ago, and has been gradually applying negative sequestration since that time.

I think what got my attention in Lovelock's book "The Revenge Of Gaia" is that he makes a point about one of those simple, hard to answer questions that would come from a five year old: why do we pee? I have the book out on loan right now, so I forget which chapter has this subheading off hand, but Lovelock makes the point that this very natural biological function that we all take for granted, is very energy and resource inefficient, considering that we could have easily evolved with the anaerobic bacteria needed to reprocess most of these wastes that are discharged because of the toxic effects of uric acid. We could not survive without the gut bacteria in our small intestines digesting our food, so why don't our bodies' have bacteria that's in the soil which breaks down the wastes and recovers proteins? We could reuse those proteins, not to mention all of the water we have to consume to maintain body fluid levels. Lovelock posits that the only way to explain the simple act of urination and the lack of animals recovering most of their waste is that some common principle was at work on behalf of the greater good. Specifically, if animals were selfishly retaining their nutrients and water, they would have far less food available to them from the plant world. So some bargain was reached so that the animals would return what they had taken to the ground from which it came from. That is offhand, why I am becoming such a fan of Lovelock -- old people are supposed to be set in their ways, but he is someone now past 90 who is still able to question why things happen with a child's mind.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why would you suggest him? I am familiar with Bjorn Lomborg, and unless his spiel has changed recently, he doesn't deny the science behind AGW theory, but instead makes a ludicrous argument that the solution should be based solely on adaptation. He doesn't present clear answers to deal with costs of adaptation, which will inevitably increase as greenhouse gas levels rise. So, someone like Lomborg is the card the oil lobby plays to try to influence people who don't buy the argument that CO2 levels will stop increasing on their own for reasons unknown, or that rising greenhouse gas levels have no connection to rising temperatures.

Lomborg's book Cool It is the only non-technical work I know of which is written by an expert in economics and social science and which addresses the costs of climate solutions. Everything I've read apart from him on the subject is technical (a lot of math). I didn't agree with everything in the book, but it seemed fairly comprehensive for a book intended for a wide audience.

There are so many unknowns in understanding ecological processes that it's likely no one can speak with authority about how to solve the problems.
That's true. But that's also true of climate sicence in general. Hopefully, however, the sum total of expertise will be (and is) enough.



Yes, but the evidence is consistent that rising temperatures in the hot zones will lead to massive crop failure, and eventually impossible to grow food completely.
I've heard the arguments, but I don't quite understand how the the research which support these arguments arrive at the conclusions they do (perhaps this is just because I haven't read enough of the research in this area). With the expected increase in temperature and an increase in CO2 (plant food), I haven't read any research which shows how this will negatively effect crops on a large-scale that didn't depend on some rather convoluted arguments such as assuming some of the most uncertain possibilities in climate theory.


The economists who are up to speed on this issue, are very much in agreement that adaptation depends on a nation's wealth to try to adapt to climate change.
They differ, however, in what this means.

My first thought is that the most prominent climatologists who receive frequent death threats - like Phil Jones and Hansen, probably are going to be the most difficult to contact for security reasons alone.

I'm sure that's true. However, this was before the email hacks (and by the way, in one email a climate scientist talks about being "very tempted" to beat the crap out of Patrick Michaels the next time they meet). And Christy has long been the subject of verbal attacks from all types of sources. I don't know about death threats.

When it comes to fear tactics -- after I learned a little about this issue, I was thinking the exact opposite -- that most of them sugarcoat their message, following some doctrine that Al Gore came up with several years ago -- that the message should not appear too scary, and there has to be easy solutions provided or people will tune out.

I'm going by what I read in the research in terms of predictions, versus what I read or hear from the media and from non-technical publications (books, websites), including those by scientists.

Also, if you notice, almost none of the prominent climatologists have even bothered making projections past 2100. Why not?
Well it could be because so far all of our predictions have failed, and the more into the future one tries to predict, the less accurate it is. Given that none of the models predicted the current trend, asking them to predict what will happen beyond 100 years is probably asking too much.


but the general trend of today is almost certain to make the World ice-free by 2300...
That depends on what trend you are referring to. The trend of the past 10+ years, the past 40+ years, the last 100+ years? In the early twentieth century, the temperature rose quickly due to natural forcings, and then dropped for another 30 years or so, and then (during the AGW theory) rose for another 30. Then sometime in the 90s it seems to have flattened (no warming trend).

And that certainly is a road that Hansen, Jones and others don't want to take their audience along.

Probably true, but their public statements already go beyond the science. The catastrophic picture painted by Lovelock is simply not supported by mainstream research.

I don't have the book:"Merchants of Doubt" by Naomi Oreskes
I read her study "Beyond the Ivory Tower." It was poorly done and apart from political motivations I can't understand why she would have conducted it as she did.

Some of those scientists, like the late Fred Singer, went from lobbying on behalf of SDI to smoking to denying global warming. I don't know if Spencer goes back to SDI, but he is on the board at the Marshall Institute.
There are or have been a few scientists who (I think) are clearly uninterested in the science and are merely interested in denying the theory. Spencer was working for NASA until (if memory serves) the 90s at least, and his only other affiliation was with UAH.


The way I see it, Malthus's basic theory may still be sound and we haven't proven it wrong yet because the predicted dates of resource depletion have fallen short.
The reason his theory failed in its predictive power wasn't due to the wrong dates for resources, but because it depended on the resources used during his day. However, technology provided new resources, and an increase of old resources, on a level that didn't just make his prediction wrong, but useless. This doesn't mean that it is impossible for humans to run out of resources, nor impossible to use population models to predict when. However, so far this hasn't worked because the models can't incorporate advances which make the models obselete.


If we use the concept of ecological footprint as a guide, we have to somehow calculate our land and resource use, along with our impact on nature, to determine whether our economic aspirations can be sustained by what the nature's economy can provide for us.
What "nature" can provide for us has been vastly increased over the centuries. Our ability to grow more with less allowed us to use far less land to provide far more food. This makes using history as a guide very problematic. What history shows us is that humans continually overcome population limits with technology.



The biggest problem of modern agriculture is that its monocroping and intensive use of pesticides and fertilizers degrades the land
In the middle ages, they had to "fallow" fields because the plants degraded the land. The crops wouldn't grow. That's no longer true.

I'm afraid Malthusian dire predictions are not wrong, they have merely been delayed by human efforts to extract more from the land than previous generations were capable of doing.
That's true, but it's more than that. We created resources which weren't around. How do you predict the time when resources run out, when our ability to get more with less and to use resources that previous generations couldn't keeps increasing?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Necessity is the mother of invention. We don't need such systems now. Given both need and technological sophistication on the time table we're talking about (well over a century), I'd be suprised if we weren't able to. Of course, if such ecosystems were truly "necessary" their necessity would mean people were already dying along with an already largely destroyed earth.
By the time we "need" the systems we won't be able to withstand such mistakes as killing all the vertebrate species in a "woops" moment.

Not to mention the fact that few species would survive such confined conditions to begin with.

wa:do
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If the Gaia Theorists are on the right track that living creatures can cooperate for their own benefit on such a wide scale as this, the changes caused by the sun, cosmic rays and asteroid impacts, and volcanism, will cause spikes in greenhouse gas levels which the biosphere will try to adjust to, but will only be able to respond very gradually. So, the upward movements of CO2 would appear more rapidly than the downward pressures of carbon sequestration -- assuming Lovelock's idea that the Earth was perfectly balanced less than 2 billion years ago, and has been gradually applying negative sequestration since that time.

2 billion years ago there was no really complex life. Multicellular complex life begain around 1 billion years ago, and animals began to appear around a 5 or 6 hundred million years ago. Mammals maybe a couple hundred million. So if life started "unbalancing" over a billion years ago, then this planet is not really capable of supporting animal or plant life. I'm also curious to know how the hypothesis explains the fact that almost every species which ever existed is extinct, most before homo sapiens existed.
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Here's my main takeaway about climate change: too many people are living in total denial and will support nothing other than a piecemeal approach to staving off a future calamity.
Then we must pick our pieces carefully... stepwise progress is still progress.
But you also have to remember that not every part of the world is capable of living the "green utopia" for several complex intertwined reasons.

So we don't know "what else is involved." This is the trope tossed up by the deniers now that the case against a warming climate is becoming too difficult to support with evidence of any kind. Whatever else is involved, it doesn't matter -- we're still dead if it continues! How's that for being rational?
It's not rational and that is a problem.

If we magically cut all fossil fuel use right now... warming would still continue for the next century or so. It's not a magic bullet or a cure all.
We need to know what other factors are contributing to the problem. Methane is increasing as well, and that is even more dangerous than CO2... We need to know why because if we don't know we still end up dead.
Dismissing the true scope of the problem in favor of a bogyman is no answer.

Just like quitting cigarettes to stop getting lung cancer if you continue to work with asbestos is pointless. You still die from lung cancer.

When historians pick through the bones and rubble of collapsed civilizations of the past, the question keeps coming up: "how did such a great civilization not see the warning signs and prevent the collapse?" Well, my theory is now, that the majority had competing groups of thoughtful people having rational discussions as they clear-cut their way out of a source of food, or farmed North African grasslands till the soil was exhausted-in the case of the Romans. The difference between then and now, is there is that civilization is global, and there are no undiscovered territories to repeat the process of overpopulation and overconsumption of available resources. If humans are hardwired to want more than nature can provide, the human race is also hardwired to drive itself to extinction.
Thanks for the sermon but you don't have to preach to me. :rolleyes:

This problem is highly complex and it will require a lot of work to fix. Simply cutting fossil fuel use won't stop global warming and recycling won't save the rainforests. They are great steps toward solving the problem but they aren't the solutions in themselves.

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
LegionOnomaMoi said:
I've heard the arguments, but I don't quite understand how the the research which support these arguments arrive at the conclusions they do (perhaps this is just because I haven't read enough of the research in this area). With the expected increase in temperature and an increase in CO2 (plant food), I haven't read any research which shows how this will negatively effect crops on a large-scale that didn't depend on some rather convoluted arguments such as assuming some of the most uncertain possibilities in climate theory.
Plants require more than just CO2 to grow... increasing heat increases the need for transpiration... which increases the need for water. Climate change in also reducing rainfall in many places, including rain forests. Much of the Amazon is undergoing drought conditions and has been for several years 2005 and 2010 being the most severe. This further reduces the plants ability to absorb CO2.

You also increase the need for other nutrients that will be hard to come by (unless you just care about crops). Nitrogen, potassium and other nutrients are generally slow to enter into the natural system. Much of it is provided by decay of dead plant and animal matter, but much of that also runs off or gasses off during the process.

Also, just like animals can't survive in the presence of too much oxygen, plants can't survive in the presence of too much carbon dioxide. It reduces the levels of photosynthesis for example. There is also research showing the higher levels of CO2 reduce the overall nutritional value of food crops like wheat.

Increased CO2 is not simply good news for plants. This is another complex issue concerning climate change.

wa:do

*edit: links underlined
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Plants require more than just CO2 to grow... increasing heat increases the need for transpiration... which increases the need for water. Climate change in also reducing rainfall in many places, including rain forests. Much of the Amazon is undergoing drought conditions and has been for several years 2005 and 2010 being the most severe. This further reduces the plants ability to absorb CO2.

You also increase the need for other nutrients that will be hard to come by (unless you just care about crops). Nitrogen, potassium and other nutrients are generally slow to enter into the natural system. Much of it is provided by decay of dead plant and animal matter, but much of that also runs off or gasses off during the process.

Also, just like animals can't survive in the presence of too much oxygen, plants can't survive in the presence of too much carbon dioxide. It reduces the levels of photosynthesis for example. There is also research showing the higher levels of CO2 reduce the overall nutritional value of food crops like wheat.
I'm aware of all of the above. However, in periods of higher CO2 levels and higher temperatures plant life was (so far as we can tell) abundant. Of course, during some such periods the environment was so different that many species alive wouldn't be able to survive. Until around 50 to 60 million years ago, CO2 levels were probably around 2000ppm. The following is graph is from Rothman's 2002 PNAS paper on atmospheric carbon over the past 500 million years:
2juoo7.jpg


I've copied the caption here:

Fig. 4.
Fluctuations of pCO2 for the last 500 My, normalized by the estimate of pCO2 obtained from the most recent value of . The solid line is obtained from Eq. 12 by using 0 36‰. The lower and upper limits of the gray area surrounding the pCO2 curve result from 0 38 and 35‰, respectively. The gray bars at the top correspond to periods when Earth’s climate was relatively cool; the white spaces between them correspond to warm modes.

 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I'm aware of all of the above. However, in periods of higher CO2 levels and higher temperatures plant life was (so far as we can tell) abundant. Of course, during some such periods the environment was so different that many species alive wouldn't be able to survive. Until around 50 to 60 million years ago, CO2 levels were probably around 2000ppm. The following is graph is from Rothman's 2002 PNAS paper on atmospheric carbon over the past 500 million years:
2juoo7.jpg


I've copied the caption here:

Fig. 4.
Fluctuations of pCO2 for the last 500 My, normalized by the estimate of pCO2 obtained from the most recent value of . The solid line is obtained from Eq. 12 by using 0 36‰. The lower and upper limits of the gray area surrounding the pCO2 curve result from 0 38 and 35‰, respectively. The gray bars at the top correspond to periods when Earth’s climate was relatively cool; the white spaces between them correspond to warm modes.

Yes, plants were around... I'm not saying plants will all suddenly curl up and die, but that stress on the organism builds up to an unhealthy level. It's harder for plants to thrive and they are providing less primary production to support the ecosystem.

If you look at the fossil record you will see that plants during the post K-T spikes were clearly stressed. Much higher rates of infestation with insect pests for example. It's much harder to find leaves that haven't been chewed on by bugs of one sort or another. These are the spikes that are relevant to us right now.

As for your graph... I don't dispute it off hand but you should be aware of a few facts. The plants that are thriving during these times are gymnosperms and non-vascular plants. But even they had their ups and downs. This was not a time of smooth sailing and lush jungles as is often depicted. Very often it's just the opposite, a dry harsh land with plants clinging to waterways, those times also happen to correspond to your spikes.

The Late Permian in particular was very bad... there is a very good reason it's called "the Time Life Almost Died". Plants suffered major extinctions and the only plants really thriving during the time were ferns.

We know very little about the Lower Jurassic, so I can't speak to how well plants were doing at that time. However, we do know that another major extinction event hit during that time.

So, both of your carbon dioxide spikes correspond to major extinctions of both plants and animals... not a good sign.

You will also notice that the appearance of angiosperms in the late Cretaceous sees a major drop in CO2.

Angiosperms are also the plants we are concerned with... they provide all of our crops for example... and they are the ones that can't handle the spikes in CO2 seen in previous times.

Hope this helps.

wa:do
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Very often it's just the opposite, a dry harsh land with plants clinging to waterways, those times also happen to correspond to your spikes.
According to the that paper (and some others, but most research I've read doesn't go back that far) the spikes correspond to cooler periods. Hence the grey bars at the top. But we're also talking about an atmospheric co2 level that is well-beyond anything any climate model predicts. Thousands of ppml rather than hundreds.

The Late Permian in particular was very bad... there is a very good reason it's called "the Time Life Almost Died".
That's true, but the reason is mass exinction. We don't know what caused it. Asteroid impact? Mass volcanoes? The second one seems to find more support, and while this would explain high co2 levels, that is hardly the only effect of such massive eruptions.


So, both of your carbon dioxide spikes correspond to major extinctions of both plants and animals... not a good sign.
They also don't correspond well with temperature.



Angiosperms are also the plants we are concerned with... they provide all of our crops for example... and they are the ones that can't handle the spikes in CO2 seen in previous times.

Hope this helps.
That I will have to read more about. Thanks.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
According to the that paper (and some others, but most research I've read doesn't go back that far) the spikes correspond to cooler periods. Hence the grey bars at the top. But we're also talking about an atmospheric co2 level that is well-beyond anything any climate model predicts. Thousands of ppml rather than hundreds.
I said dry and harsh... not hot. :cool:
Because of the nature of Pangea there was little rainfall and what rainfall there was, was highly seasonal. It was a very dry period with plant life clinging mostly to waterways and highlands. Again, there were no angiosperms yet.

That's true, but the reason is mass exinction. We don't know what caused it. Asteroid impact? Mass volcanoes? The second one seems to find more support, and while this would explain high co2 levels, that is hardly the only effect of such massive eruptions.
We have some good ideas for the Permian extinction... runaway volcanism in Siberia was a contributing factor and there is evidence of release of massive amounts of methane hydrates at the time too.
We don't yet know what caused the Triassic-Jrassic extinction event though asteroid impact has been suggested.

They also don't correspond well with temperature.
No, but they do correspond (at least with the Permian) with much greater levels of volcanism. The highest global temperatures were in the Eocene.

That I will have to read more about. Thanks.
Anytime.

wa:do
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Lomborg's book Cool It is the only non-technical work I know of which is written by an expert in economics and social science and which addresses the costs of climate solutions. Everything I've read apart from him on the subject is technical (a lot of math). I didn't agree with everything in the book, but it seemed fairly comprehensive for a book intended for a wide audience.
I don't deny that there are costs associated with changing energy sources to lower yield renewables (unless fusion power really happens). But Lomborg's contention that the costs are greater than adapting to a warmer climate is ludicrous no matter what numbers he puts up, because he's looking at present and near future conditions, not the more distant future, when the accumulated effects of rising greenhouse gas levels will give us a world that would likely look like the time around the PETM...when the Arctic Ocean was around 23 C and had crocodiles swimming around, while the rest of the land masses were mostly scrub and desert. I don't know if it's confirmed yet, but some paleontologists have speculated that temperatures were too high during part of that extreme warming period, that the Tropic Zone was completely devoid of plant and animal life on its continents.

A couple of years ago, I first heard about this period in Earth's history from a global warming denier, who contended that because CO2 levels went up to 450 ppm during that time, and there was a relatively low level of extinctions compared to past major disruptions, that this would mean we should have no trouble adapting to similar conditions. Needless to say that animals were able to migrate out of the hot zone back then much easier than they could today, with all of our cities, roads and other infrastructure in the way. But the big difference between then and now, is that the PETM was caused by a brief period of high volcanic activity, while today we have our foot stuck on the gas pedal as long as we have large populations and a capitalist-consumer driven economy to keep adding more and more into the atmosphere....so, right now we don't know what people 50 years from now will have to adapt to. And that is the big failing of Lomborg's adaption ideas. Especially, as mentioned previously, the poorest of the World's populations in the Tropics, will bear the brunt of the worst climate change to try to adapt to. Even the CIA forecasts that at some point in the comng decades, there will be mass movements of populations trying to get out of the Global South, and obvious huge conflicts considering the northern nations they will try to migrate into.

They differ, however, in what this means.
Well, just consider how much easier it is for Australia or Saudi Arabia (a nation that is having to shut down its agriculture this decade because of declining water resources) to buy food, and also to buy land as the Saudis are doing in Africa to grow food to be exported back home, compared to African nations that do not have the hard currency to buy enough imports that will be priced out of their range. It's worth noting that most of the Arab Spring uprisings that started last January, are believed to have been sparked by rising food prices and the phasing out of government subsidies for basic grains and other foods.
Well it could be because so far all of our predictions have failed, and the more into the future one tries to predict, the less accurate it is. Given that none of the models predicted the current trend, asking them to predict what will happen beyond 100 years is probably asking too much.

That depends on what trend you are referring to. The trend of the past 10+ years, the past 40+ years, the last 100+ years? In the early twentieth century, the temperature rose quickly due to natural forcings, and then dropped for another 30 years or so, and then (during the AGW theory) rose for another 30. Then sometime in the 90s it seems to have flattened (no warming trend).
The difference between Lovelock and a handful of others who post some shocking projections for the more distant future, and the mainstream is that he is taking those worse case scenarios seriously, while the others go with the minimum projections for temp and greenhouse gas increase in their summaries and interviews, or when they are speaking in public lectures. And they have done a poor job of factoring in the likelihood of positive feedback effects from sequestered carbon in the Arctic, judging from the pattern that the IPCC projections for the future continue to fall behind the curve when the time arrives, and they failed to forecast the accelerating increase in CO2 levels in recent years at a time of general economic decline in production. For me, it's not a matter of looking for another doomsday scenario about the future -- the point is I want to know how bad the situation is, not be protected from the worst news. If the future is starting to look bleak, then let's face the facts and see if we can deal with it -- not piddle around with stuff that may accomplish nothing.

And I don't see a future if our present economic system, which keeps increasing production of new products, remains with us. I think liberals today are afraid to tamper with anything that will reduce comfort, and just want to try to tweak and adjust the system. But until I see some economist come up with a plausible theory about how a finite world can support endless growth of populations, energy use, and resource use, I don't see any alternative other than a radical change to the way we live and work today.


I read her study "Beyond the Ivory Tower." It was poorly done and apart from political motivations I can't understand why she would have conducted it as she did.
What about her basic narrative that there was no global warming controversy (I know I never heard of skeptics back then) until the Cold War nuclear scientists were enlisted by the same lobbying firms that campaigned for SDI and tobacco?

Oreskes is a fierce critic of freemarket fundamentalism, and what I find interesting to note about the skeptics, is that they are invariably believers in Neoliberal economic theory when they talk about these issues. They may not all write books about it, like Roy Spencer, but they voice concern over environmental policies that unduly constrain the markets.

The reason his theory failed in its predictive power wasn't due to the wrong dates for resources, but because it depended on the resources used during his day. However, technology provided new resources, and an increase of old resources, on a level that didn't just make his prediction wrong, but useless. This doesn't mean that it is impossible for humans to run out of resources, nor impossible to use population models to predict when. However, so far this hasn't worked because the models can't incorporate advances which make the models obselete.

What "nature" can provide for us has been vastly increased over the centuries. Our ability to grow more with less allowed us to use far less land to provide far more food.
Actually it still is true, if you look at how topsoil is produced and used up by agriculture. The soil has to be replenished, and the injections of phosphorus and nitrate fertilizers can allow depleted, eroding soil to keep producing food (with lower nutrient value I might add), but the soil turns to dust that blows away in the next windstorm, if it is being used up faster than it can be replenished. Check out: Lester Brown, on conserving and rebuilding soil
The problem today is that all around the world (including the U.S.) soil is being eroded many times faster than it can be replenished, while the old generation of farmers who knew how to rotate crops and use pastures (like my father) are all gone. Sustainable agriculture is having to be learned all over again by many people from scratch...at a time when global agribusiness is destroying the land and decreasing crop yields.

That's true, but it's more than that. We created resources which weren't around. How do you predict the time when resources run out, when our ability to get more with less and to use resources that previous generations couldn't keeps increasing?
We've actually only created a few resources that weren't around previously. Mostly what we've done is learn how to extract more resources from the earth that were previously out of reach. That may continue on for awhile...like offshore drilling and gas fracking, but these cheap carbon-intensive energy sources that have made our consumer society possible are becoming more and more expensive because the low-hanging fruit has already been picked, and the more expensive and dirtier supplies of energy are being extracted. Same as metals and mineral resources (most people are completely unaware that part of our economic problems are due to declining qualities of many ores...including iron). Unless there's a motherlode in the Arctic, there are no easy to reach, high grade ores available. Mines cease production as ore% declines to the point where it is no longer worth the costs of extraction. Sometimes (as with abandoned oil wells) a mine will be restarted as commodity prices increase; but the net effect is general economic decline, resource depletion and a dirtier, more degraded environment, as long as we keep trying to run a capitalist consumption-driven economy!
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
2 billion years ago there was no really complex life. Multicellular complex life begain around 1 billion years ago, and animals began to appear around a 5 or 6 hundred million years ago. Mammals maybe a couple hundred million. So if life started "unbalancing" over a billion years ago, then this planet is not really capable of supporting animal or plant life.
Even if the theory is incorrect, there still is the problem to explain why the early planet switched from accumulating high concentrations of greenhouse gases to lower and lower CO2 levels...apart from those periodic spikes, cause by natural processes. If the biosphere adjusts over long periods of time to increased solar radiation, by increasing negative carbon sequestration, that would provide a means to explain facts that currently are unexplained.

I'm also curious to know how the hypothesis explains the fact that almost every species which ever existed is extinct, most before homo sapiens existed.
???????
I don't see how that would be any contradiction of the Gaia Hypothesis. Remember, the biosphere would be optimized for the majority of species using available resources. It's not a scheme created by a Gaia conservationist with an endangered species list. Species that are unable to gain enough available resources die out, or in many cases, those species evolved over time into different species....consider that today's birds are the descendents from a surviving line of dinosaurs.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Then we must pick our pieces carefully... stepwise progress is still progress.
But you also have to remember that not every part of the world is capable of living the "green utopia" for several complex intertwined reasons.

It's not rational and that is a problem.

If we magically cut all fossil fuel use right now... warming would still continue for the next century or so. It's not a magic bullet or a cure all.
We need to know what other factors are contributing to the problem. Methane is increasing as well, and that is even more dangerous than CO2... We need to know why because if we don't know we still end up dead.
Dismissing the true scope of the problem in favor of a bogyman is no answer.

Just like quitting cigarettes to stop getting lung cancer if you continue to work with asbestos is pointless. You still die from lung cancer.


Thanks for the sermon but you don't have to preach to me. :rolleyes:

This problem is highly complex and it will require a lot of work to fix. Simply cutting fossil fuel use won't stop global warming and recycling won't save the rainforests. They are great steps toward solving the problem but they aren't the solutions in themselves.

wa:do
I have no doubt that the problem is highly complex, but picking up where I left off on a previous comment, I am questioning everything about the way we live today, and asking how an economic system based on continuous, exponential growth works in a finite world? It seems to me that a "stepwise" solution would fall along the lines of changing from carbon to renewable energy sources; and recycling (or better: reuse) would reduce the demand for non-renewable resources. But, will that be enough to stop eventual catastrophic climate change if we continue to increase population and increase resource use because of an economic system that fuels increased consumption?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
My hypothesis is that the arrival of angiosperms played a big role in the decrease in CO2 levels.

Angiosperms are very efficient at sequestering carbon and are capable of living in a wider variety of habitats. With their fast life cycles and in the shedding of leaves... both of which add carbon back into the soil faster than I suspect ferns and gymnosperms do.

wa:do
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
My hypothesis is that the arrival of angiosperms played a big role in the decrease in CO2 levels.

Angiosperms are very efficient at sequestering carbon and are capable of living in a wider variety of habitats. With their fast life cycles and in the shedding of leaves... both of which add carbon back into the soil faster than I suspect ferns and gymnosperms do.

wa:do
Yes, but was their arrival facilitated by the need to reduce the impact of a warming Sun?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Yes, but was their arrival facilitated by the need to reduce the impact of a warming Sun?
No... it had to do with changes in seed production by plants.

The global thermal maximum was still tens of millions of years away, so if angiosperms were meant to reduce the impact of a warming sun they failed miserably.

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I have no doubt that the problem is highly complex, but picking up where I left off on a previous comment, I am questioning everything about the way we live today, and asking how an economic system based on continuous, exponential growth works in a finite world? It seems to me that a "stepwise" solution would fall along the lines of changing from carbon to renewable energy sources; and recycling (or better: reuse) would reduce the demand for non-renewable resources. But, will that be enough to stop eventual catastrophic climate change if we continue to increase population and increase resource use because of an economic system that fuels increased consumption?
That's fine... but it won't solve our problems. Again, stepwise change is better than no change. And there isn't going to be a single solution that fits the needs of every nation, at least not yet... even though we have a common goal.

You can't simply tell people they are doing things wrong and expect them to change... even if you think you have the perfect solution.

The truth is climate change is going to happen no matter what we do... what we are changing is the speed of the process and the severity of the impact on global ecosystems.

wa:do
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
They figured out the permian extintion WAS caused by the siberian traps.

They also figured out the dinosaurs bit it by the meteor impact, even though other things were going on, it was the final nail in the coffin.

Building the Green-Collar Economy

The lure of renewable energy sources is that they help fight climate 
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Building the Green-Collar Economy | Alternative Medicine | DISCOVER Magazine



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