God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

Or a non-deist god who only communicates with tree shrews. Or a certain type of fern on a little planet 140 ly from here. Or a kerjillion other possibilities where your messengers are mistaken.

Correct, and that is why I never claim that what I believe is true, since I cannot prove it is true to anyone else except myself.

 

[CG Didymus]

I will admit it if you give me some examples. That would be just. But to accuse me with no evidence to back it up is unjust.

Who did I disrespect?

Sorry, if you don't know, none of us here can help you. The first thing you need to do is admit it to yourself. "I, Trailblazer, sometimes say things that may sound disrespectful." We'll understand. Heck, we all do it. None of us are perfect. In fact, we've probably treated you and Tony with little or no respect. It's just that sometimes, probably completely accidental, you guys come off sounding like religious know-it-alls... that whatever you guys say is the truth and whatever we say is wrong.

But, you know, it's kind of strange that with this you expect "evidence"? Why not on all the "stuff" you guys put out there? We ask, "Can you prove there are creatures on every planet?" You answer with, "Can you prove there isn't?" Then the classic, "I don't claim anything, so I don't have to prove anything." And, "There is evidence but you will not accept it as proof." And, "He fulfilled all the prophecies... and those he didn't... he will." Maybe you don't see those as avoiding answering the questions, but it sure seems like it.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have said time and again that I believe the Messengers are the evidence for God...

That is something you disagree with but that does not mean I avoided the question.

And then we ask, "What is the evidence that those messengers were real?" To that we get, "Because Baha'u'llah said they were real."

 

[CG Didymus]

If the question was "what is evidence for god" then that might have been a start at an answer. But what I asked was, Give me evidence that there is a god for any one to be a messenger of. Thank you for the demonstration.

Okay, now I get it. The messengers are proof there is a God. And how do we know they are messengers of God, because they said so... And a lot of people believed them and created a religion around the things that those people said that the messenger said about God.

But, those people got some of the things wrong, so we can't trust what they said about the messenger or about God. So, God, in his infinite wisdom, sent another messenger to straighten out the misunderstandings. But that messengers teaching got distorted and the people made the messenger out to be God. But, that's beside the point. The point is that messenger, the things he really said, not the phony stuff his followers said, came from God. So how could they come from God, if there is no God. That's just common sense... or as TB likes to say... "That's Logic 101."

 

[ppp]

Correct, and that is why I never claim that what I believe is true, since I cannot prove it is true to anyone else except myself.

Which is its own evasion. You are claiming that what you believe is true.

 

[CG Didymus]

Correct, and that is why I never claim that what I believe is true, since I cannot prove it is true to anyone else except myself.

But, people in most all religions do believe their stuff to be true. And by believing it to be true, it works for them.... Like Christians, I was a lost sinner. The devil had me fooled. Now I've seen the light and put my trust in Jesus. He saved me from my sins and I'm going to be with him in heaven, while all the non-Christians are going to burn in hell.

So is it real? Or is it a spiritual placebo effect going on? I know Christians that felt the power of God descend on them during a healing service. One guy said it felt like warm honey being poured on him. Another prayed to God while rock climbing and felt the hand of God keep him from falling. I know Baha'is that have had visions of Abdul Baha. One Baha'i lady said that she prayed and her car made a forty foot jump across a washed out road going out to an Indian Reservation.

 

[CG Didymus]

They said that at one time about life at the bottom of the ocean and in the boiling hot volcanic pools, then life is found.

Of course, we either have to wait until we are visited, or we visit the places. Hopefully one of the mars creatures will fix the broken mars exploration rover and give us a wave

Baha'u'llah did not say we will find intelligent life on all the planets though, just other creatures and other intelligent life we will find. Many may have to stop thinking that human is the only life form that can be intelligent and have the ability to know and Love God though.

Regards Tony

There are things we do to sterilize objects and kill all living things. One of them is excessive heat. That's why I say to make it easy let's ask some scientists if any creatures can live on Mercury? But then, the question is will you believe them? Or, will you believe Baha'u'llah and say that scientists are wrong and that someday they will be able to see the creatures that live there. And the ones that live on the outer planets in extreme cold. But that's not agreeing with science. That's putting religious beliefs ahead of what science can see.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry, if you don't know, none of us here can help you. The first thing you need to do is admit it to yourself. "I, Trailblazer, sometimes say things that may sound disrespectful."

I do not have to admit that just because you believe it.
Sound disrespectful to who?
I never get any complaints from Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, agnostics or atheists.
I only get complaints from you and one other poster on this this forum who I consider very disrespectful.

What is it about some people that they are compelled to criticize other people? Then they try to make it look like they are not criticizing when clearly they are. Calling someone disrespectful (couched in the subterfuge that it only "sounds disrespectful") is a personal criticism.

Calling people out on unjust behavior is not disrespectful. Disagreeing with other people's religious beliefs is not disrespectful. Baha'u'llah did both of those!

I do not care if you attack my beliefs, but why do you have to get personal about me? What is the reason why you and one other person has to do that? Why is it that I post to all the other people on this forum and nobody else says I am disrespectful? It can't be me because if it was me other people would have commented in the three years I have been here.

One and a half years I have been posting to Nimos regularly, and not once has he ever criticized my person.
Why do you think that is? He certainly does not agree with any of my my beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

And then we ask, "What is the evidence that those messengers were real?" To that we get, "Because Baha'u'llah said they were real."

That is the evidence TO ME so that is what you are going to get FROM ME.

You are not me so it is not evidence TO YOU. Do you understand?

 

[Trailblazer]

Which is its own evasion. You are claiming that what you believe is true.

There is no evasion. I am straight and to the point. I believe that what I believe is true.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I'll criticize those who keep on giving me crappy non-answers all I want. Including your's.

It has nothing to with ego, it's about not accepting crappy non-answers from certain lame posters who cannot back up their claims with anything other that all kinds of avoidance tactics.

It's just plain annoying if someone demands I accept their beliefs and instead of even trying to back up their claims, keep on replying with off-track nonsense to derail the whole thing.

Like:

Ancient Soul - So do you have any proof that your religion came from "god"?
Unless you have absolute proof of that, you cannot really believe any of it.

Other person - I never said I was TOLD to believe any of it, it's what I CHOOSE to believe!!!!

Ancient Soul - Stop with the avoidance tactics. I asked if you had some conclusive proof that your religion came from "god"?
Without that you have no basis to believe any of it.

Other person - Stop making personal attacks. I said nothing about God being evil!

Ancient Soul - NO, enough of the avoidance tactics. I stated this:

"Stop with the avoidance tactics. I asked if you had some conclusive proof that your religion came from "god"?
Without that you have no basis to believe any of it."

So just answer to that.

Other person - I can see that you are possessed by demons and are far from God, you will burn in hell!!!

And on, and on, and on... they go...

It's soooo annoying and stupid.

Hey Ancient, I really like your zeal for truth and critical thinking. But aren't souls here to evolve - that includes virtues like patience, compassion, respect...? Are we just to know and talk about or be?

I agree with some of your points but TB doesn't deserve to be treated like a laughing stock. It's not what you say but how you say it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Like for everything else, you have no proof of Adam, Abraham, Noah and Moses to be historical. All your beliefs are without foundation.

I never said I have proof. That is why they are called beliefs.

If there are planets without life in THIS Solar system, why do you think it would be any different in any other solar system? The plain thing is that the Iranian preacher was not educated and knew nothing of science, only Injeel and Quran.If you present falsehood, then it will naturally be criticized.

I don't know and I don't care. I am not a scientist.

Criticize my beliefs as much as you want to. Did I ever complain that you criticized my beliefs? I was not talking about criticizing my beliefs, I was talking about criticizing my personal behavior.

What you and others consider falsehood I consider the Truth from God. You cannot prove that it isn't anymore than I can prove it is. No matter what you say that you believe disproves my beliefs I will have an explanation for it, but I do not expect you to accept my explanation.

 

[night912]

Look, I just proved an intentional deception. That's not a "criticism", just a fact.

I said: No, it is not, because I could not care less what other people think of me unless I am truly dishonest or treating others badly, but since I am not........

There is no deception there.
You just cannot see it for what it is, you being unable to look at yourself but rather constantly looking at others and criticizing them. That's sad but I am not responsible for your character, you are.

Carry on. You only dig your grave deeper.

I wonder why nobody else on this forums sees what you see? Are you All-Knowing and All-Wise?

To help settle this dispute, you guys can use me for evidence as a firsthand eyewitnesses account to support Trailblazer as being dishonest, playing avoidance game and making false accusations against those who have presented evidence against her claims.

OOPS. Was the witness leading the councilor?

Keep going, you only dig your hole deeper and deeper, for all the reasons I gave.

You are not hurting me, you hurt only yourself, and all the "good" Christians here can see it, although they are too kind to say anything, besides the fact that they live by what Jesus taught about doing onto others as they would be done by, judge not lest ye be judged, etc.

Love that Jesus.

I believe that the good Christians in here are not saying anything might be because they believe in scripture from the bible. How does it go again?

Here it is.

Exodus 23:1
1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

Just because you don't care and is are willing to be dishonest, that doesn't mean that everyone else is dishonest and is willing to lie and give a false testimony to defend the wicked. I guess they rather choose Jesus over the wicked. So now you're trying to manipulate Christians by appealing to their beliefs and now acting as if you really believe that Jesus, the previous messenger of God that was no longer needed for modern times, and his "Old" teachings, are now suited for the modern era?

Before anyone say anything, I'm not saying that this is a fact. It's just my BELIEF, so I'm just stating what I BELIEVE to be true.

 

[PearlSeeker]

So is it real? Or is it a spiritual placebo effect going on?

Placebo effect in medicine is interesting. Some fake persons and objects can invoke power of mind to affect body. It works despite (because of) false beliefs. "New thought" movement has tried to use mind over matter directly...

You are comparing this to religion. Maybe God doesn't care so much about how much of what we believe is true, myth or false. Maybe it is more important what the story or person symbolizes/means to a believer and how it shows in his life. Maybe God grants guiding and blessings according to fervour, devotion, good conduct... even if through something that is not 100% true.

 

[ppp]

There is no evasion. I am straight and to the point. I believe that what I believe is true.

YOu are claiming that what you believe is true.

 

[CG Didymus]

It all depends upon what you consider evidence.

Yes, the evidence from the Bible. God spoke to Moses and told him to tell Pharaoh to let my people go. Pharaoh refused so then comes the plaques. On one of the visits Moses' cane turns into a snake. Anyway, Pharaoh tells then get out and don't come back. The Hebrews head out into the desert. Pharaoh changes his mind, gets his army and sets out after them in chariots. Moses parts the sea. The Hebrews cross, then when Pharaoh's army tries to cross the water close together and drown them. Many more things happen in the desert that show God's power and that he is real... Like appearing to Moses and writing the 10 commandments in stone.

Do we accept those Bible stories as evidence that God is real? No. Same thing with the written "evidence" about God and Jesus in the NT. No. So a flaw is that Jews and Christians were expected to believe those stories as evidence. Atheists and Baha'is reject those stories. Yet, atheists and people in the other religions are expected to accept the "evidence" presented by Baha'u'llah? Which is what? His writings? His person? The fulfillment of prophecies from Scriptures we can't trust? Fulfillment of predictions he made?

Then once we accept him as being from God, we then have to accept everything he said as being true? We have to believe his plan for peace is going to work? No, no, wait. Let's hear some of the things he has said and see if we believe they are true... like the thing about the creatures on every planet. Then how will the laws supposedly sent from God really work and how will they be enforced. Lots of things to question and doubt.

The first ones being... Is there a God? Has God been consistent with his messages and his laws? Does he send messengers that are special creations that are the only ones that can hear and understand God and then tell us what God wants? Again, have these messengers been consistent with what they say about God? Have they been perfect reflections of God? Not necessarily, the stories about them are inconsistent with what they say about God and what he wants from people. And that is explained by saying that the people that wrote the messages maybe got it wrong? And the people that interpreted those messages got it wrong? Well then those things we thought we knew about God can't be trusted. Why trust what Baha'is are saying now? Are there "flaws" in the things we are hearing?

 

[CG Didymus]

Placebo effect in medicine is interesting. Some fake persons and objects can invoke power of mind to affect body. It works despite (because of) false beliefs. "New thought" movement has tried to use mind over matter directly...

You are comparing this to religion. Maybe God doesn't care so much about how much of what we believe is true, myth or false. Maybe it is more important what the story or person symbolizes/means to a believer and how it shows in his life. Maybe God grants guiding and blessings according to fervour, devotion, good conduct... even if through something that is not 100% true.

I think that is exactly what is happening. I had Charismatic/Pentecostal Christian friends that believed in the power of prayer and that they'd get what they prayed for. Whether a healing or financial help to pay for something they needed. Lots of them had examples of it working. But for those that didn't get a healing or get the help, what was the reason? They didn't have enough faith? In what I saw... The people at the healing services that came in on wheelchairs, left in wheelchairs. Those with backaches or migraines were all healed?

But in a religion like the Baha'i Faith the people are praying for peace and unity and to become better people. The more they really believe it and put it into practice the better. But, as with other religions, especially "organized" religions, too many people don't continue to change. They reach a point to where outwardly they seem like good spiritual/religious people, but that's only at religious gatherings. The rest of the time they don't practice the things that their religion teaches. Like the Christians that "lost" their first love and are just going through the motions.

 

[CG Didymus]

Correct, and that is why I never claim that what I believe is true, since I cannot prove it is true to anyone else except myself.

If you say, "I believe this is true"... isn't that a claim? And you do have the proof that convinced you. But, I know, every time you share it, it gets rejected. And why is that? Because it is unprovable proof? Well then, is it really proof? Again, I know, it is to you.

We see that as a "flaw". Baha'is don't. They see it as God opening the eyes of those that trust him and his messenger, and keeping the eyes closed of those that don't want to believe but that want to keep doubting and questioning. Nothing will convince those kinds of people. No "evidence" is good enough for them. That's like throwing something valuable to people who don't appreciate it. Those no good bums! But are they really blind and so full of doubt that nothing will convince them? Or, are the answers to their questions flawed and unconvincing?

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not have to admit that just because you believe it.
Sound disrespectful to who?
I never get any complaints from Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, agnostics or atheists.
I only get complaints from you and one other poster on this this forum who I consider very disrespectful.

What is it about some people that they are compelled to criticize other people? Then they try to make it look like they are not criticizing when clearly they are. Calling someone disrespectful (couched in the subterfuge that it only "sounds disrespectful") is a personal criticism.

Calling people out on unjust behavior is not disrespectful. Disagreeing with other people's religious beliefs is not disrespectful. Baha'u'llah did both of those!

I do not care if you attack my beliefs, but why do you have to get personal about me? What is the reason why you and one other person has to do that? Why is it that I post to all the other people on this forum and nobody else says I am disrespectful? It can't be me because if it was me other people would have commented in the three years I have been here.

One and a half years I have been posting to Nimos regularly, and not once has he ever criticized my person.
Why do you think that is? He certainly does not agree with any of my my beliefs.

Let me pull a Trailblazer tactic... "Give me an example? When have I ever attacked you personally? I'm only answering posts here."

 

[CG Didymus]

I have said time and again that I believe the Messengers are the evidence for God...

Many of those messengers are possibly mythical. Baha'is don't believe the stories written about them. All they have is Baha'u'llah saying they were real.

That is the evidence TO ME so that is what you are going to get FROM ME.

You are not me so it is not evidence TO YOU. Do you understand?

Yes, when have I ever doubted that all you have is the word of your messenger when he says that all those other messengers were real. In other words, for those that don't believe that Baha'u'llah is a real messenger from God, there is no "evidence" that the others are real.

My question is that where does he get his evidence? He makes up his own stories about Krishna, Adam, Noah and Abraham. Where did he get those stories? From God or is he getting it from non-Biblical writings?

Oh, and even with your little "Do you understand" type of things you say, do you mean them in a respectful way? Or, is that your way of saying, "What's a matter with you? Are you dense or something?"