God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

You are now switching to a different argument. From claiming that your god cannot provide his message to everyone (because of freewill impingement) to and now just claiming that your god does not want everyone to believe he exists or that he has messages.

I did not say that God does not want everyone to believe He exists or that He has messages, I said that God does not want to give everyone a personal message or demonstrate His existence.

Not my problem.

It is only your problem of you want a personal message or a demonstration of God's existence.

 

[night912]

God wants everyone to receive His message, but only of they get it from the Messenger. God does not communicate directly to humans and there is no reason why He should. If people want the message, they can get it from the Messenger.

God does not need anyone to get His message, since the message is ONLY for the benefit of humans, not for God's benefit. God has no needs, so it does not matter to God if anyone gets His message.

That's a contradiction. If God wants everyone to receive his message, than he needs to use a method where everyone can receive it correctly.

 

[ppp]

I did not say that God does not want everyone to believe He exists or that He has messages, I said that God does not want to give everyone a personal message or demonstrate His existence.

If there is someone, god or otherwise, who wants me to believe that they exist, but is unwilling to do the things that would convince me, then that someone is either incapable of doing those things, or that someone is a dolt.

It is only your problem of you want a personal message or a demonstration of God's existence.[/QUOTE]
Not even then.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's a contradiction. If God wants everyone to receive his message, than he needs to use a method where everyone can receive it correctly.

No, because God does not need everyone to receive his message.

A want and a need are not the same thing. I might want a new Mercedes but I do not need one because I have an old Honda. I would have to give up other things I want in order to procure a new Mercedes, so I am happy to settle for my old Honda.

 

[ppp]

No, because God does not need everyone to receive his message.

A want and a need are not the same thing. I might want a new Mercedes but I do not need one because I have an old Honda. I would have to give up other things I want in order to procure a new Mercedes, so I am happy to settle for my old Honda.

A perfect being would have no wants.

 

[Trailblazer]

If there is someone, god or otherwise, who wants me to believe that they exist, but is unwilling to do the things that would convince me, then that someone is either incapable of doing those things, or that someone is a dolt.

Or that someone is not a servant who takes orders from you.

God is not your servant. God is under no obligation to convince you of anything.

Who do you think you are that God owes it to you to convince you that He exists? Why do you think you deserve that? Why would anyone deserve that, without having to do anything at all to get it?

It is only your problem of you want a personal message or a demonstration of God's existence.
Not even then.

It is your problem if you expect God to hop to and prove He exists, because God is not your servant.
God is nobody's servant, so God does not take orders from humans.

 

[ppp]

If there is someone, god or otherwise, who wants me to believe that they exist, but is unwilling to do the things that would convince me, then that someone is either incapable of doing those things, or that someone is a dolt.

Or that someone is not a servant who takes orders from you.

I neither gave no implied orders. If you don't have a a response to what I said, then just say so. Quit straw manning me just so you can use fake indignation to avoid my point.

 

[Trailblazer]

A perfect being would have no wants.

That's absolutely correct. God wants nothing for Himself because God if fully self-sufficient.

The only reason that God wants us to believe in Him and get His message is for our own benefit. That is why God leaves it up to us to choose what we want. If we want the benefits of believing in God and getting His message we will do what it takes, but if we don't want it badly enough we won't do anything. The ball is in our court where God threw it. Our own actions will determine if we catch the ball and get reward or not.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Forget what I said about force. That is not the point. The point is that God does not want to give everyone a personal message or demonstrate His existence. If God wanted to do that God would have done that long ago, since an omnipotent God could do it.

Why should God give everyone a personal message or demonstrate His existence? That is the hundred dollar question.

Why should your god prove he exists when it can??????????

Stick to the excuse it can only show itself to the people clever enough to see it.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, a Messenger does not need people to follow Him, but some people do follow Him.

A messenger is ignored if no one follows him or her.

 

[ppp]

That's absolutely correct. God wants nothing for Himself because God if fully self-sufficient.

A perfect god would want nothing. They would want nothing. Nothing at all. A perfect god would not even want for the universe to exist, because wants only exist when there is a desire for change. And a desire for change means that there is something about the current state that is not perfect.

 

[Trailblazer]

I neither gave no implied orders. If you don't have a a response to what I said, then just say so. Quit straw manning me just so you can use fake indignation to avoid my point.

You said: "If there is someone, god or otherwise, who wants me to believe that they exist, but is unwilling to do the things that would convince me, then that someone is either incapable of doing those things, or that someone is a dolt.

You expect God to do the things that would convince you if He is capable. Otherwise you consider God a dolt.
If that is not what you are saying, correct me.

Why should God do the things that would convince you just because God is capable of doing those things?

 

[Trailblazer]

A perfect god would want nothing. They would want nothing. Nothing at all. A god would not even want for the universe to exist, because wants only exist when there is a desire for change. And a desire for change means that there is something about the current state is not perfect.

How do you think you know these things about God? How do you think you know what God would want?

Do you watch any news? There certainly is something about the current state of the world that is not perfect. God wants humans to fix the problems we have in the world. That is the main reason God sent Baha'u'llah over 150 years ago, which is when He wrote the following.

“Please God, the peoples of the world may be led, as the result of the high endeavors exerted by their rulers and the wise and learned amongst men, to recognize their best interests. How long will humanity persist in its waywardness? How long will injustice continue? How long is chaos and confusion to reign amongst men? How long will discord agitate the face of society?… The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divideth and afflicteth the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective. I beseech God, exalted be His glory, that He may graciously awaken the peoples of the earth, may grant that the end of their conduct may be profitable unto them, and aid them to accomplish that which beseemeth their station.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 216-217

 

[Trailblazer]

A messenger is ignored if no one follows him or her.

But people do follow the Messengers.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why should your god prove he exists when it can??????????

Yes, please answer that question.
Why should God prove He exists in the WAY you want Him to just because He can?

God provided proof through the Messengers. Why should God provide some other proof, just because you want it?

 

[ppp]

You said: "If there is someone, god or otherwise, who wants me to believe that they exist, but is unwilling to do the things that would convince me, then that someone is either incapable of doing those things, or that someone is a dolt.

You expect God to do the things that would convince you if He is capable. Otherwise you consider God a dolt.
If that is not what you are saying, correct me.

Or that someone is not a servant who takes orders from you.

Now you are BSing me. You are jumping from 'order' to 'expect'. I expect for a rock to sink when it falls in to water. I expect a baby to cry when it's hungry. I expect that someone who wants to take a nap, and has the resources to take a nap, will take a nap. In none of those cases am I doing any ordering.

 

[ppp]

How do you think you know these things about God? How do you think you know what God would want?

Do you watch any news? There certainly is something about the current state of the world that is not perfect.

I am going to stop there, because you did not read my post. The state of the world as it is now is irrelevant to what I said.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now you are BSing me. You are jumping from 'order' to 'expect'. I expect for a rock to sink when it falls in to water. I expect a baby to cry when it's hungry. I expect that someone who wants to take a nap, and has the resources to take a nap, will take a nap. In none of those cases am I doing any ordering.

You expect God to do the things that would convince you if He is capable. Otherwise you consider God a dolt.
If that is not what you are saying, correct me.

I did not say you were doing any ordering. I said:
It is your problem if you expect God to hop to and prove He exists, because God is not your servant.
God is nobody's servant, so God does not take orders from humans.

So if you do not expect God to prove He exists, then no problem.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am going to stop there, because you did not read my post. The state of the world as it is now is irrelevant to what I said.

You said: "A perfect god would want nothing. They would want nothing. Nothing at all. A god would not even want for the universe to exist, because wants only exist when there is a desire for change. And a desire for change means that there is something about the current state is not perfect."

How do you know that a perfect God would want nothing? How do you know that a perfect God would not have a desire for change in the current state? Can you prove that or is it just a personal opinion?

 

[ppp]

I did not say you were doing any ordering. I said:

Or that someone is not a servant who takes orders from you.

God is not your servant. God is under no obligation to convince you of anything.

You are BSing me.