God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

You WANT to possess and/or have possession of the new Mercedes and in order to achieve that "want," you NEED to give up other things. You failed to do what was needed to obtain what you wanted, that's why you don't possessed the Mercedes.

You are changing what I said to try to make your point about God's method, but it won't work, because I am one step ahead of you.

I said I might want a new Mercedes but since I don't need one I am happy to settle for my old Honda. I never said that I NEED give up other things. I said that I would have to give up other things I want in order to obtain a new Mercedes. I chose not to do what would have been needed in order to obtain a new Mercedes because I do not need a new Mercedes, and that's why I do not have a new Mercedes

Trailblazer said: I might want a new Mercedes but I do not need one because I have an old Honda. I would have to give up other things I want in order to procure a new Mercedes, so I am happy to settle for my old Honda.

How let's apply that analogy to God. God might want everyone to receive His message, but since God does not need everyone to receive His message, God is not going to give up what He wants in order to achieve everyone receiving His message. God wants everyone to recognize His Messenger by virtue of their own free will. God is not going to give up what He wants in order to achieve 100% receipt of His message.

God wants everyone to receive his message. In order to get what he wanted, he needs a method of delivering his message that is not flawed. But since God's method is flawed, he did not get what he wanted.

Now you speak for what God wants. Do you have a direct line to God?

There is absolutely no basis to claim that God wants everyone to receive his message because you have no evidence that is true, so if you are claiming that it is a bald assertion.

Below are my beliefs, but I am not asserting them because I cannot prove they are true:

Nothing God does is flawed because God is infallible. That means that is God sent Messengers, that cannot be a flawed method.

God always gets what God wants because God is All-Powerful... Thus nothing happens that is not in accordance with God's Will.

God gave humans free will so humans can choose what to believe or disbelieve.

God wanted people to recognize Baha'u'llah, otherwise God would not have sent Him. Some people chose to recognize Baha'u'llah and follow Him. It does not matter to God if to date most people have rejected Baha'u'llah, because God is Self-Sufficient, so God does not need anyone believing in Him or getting His message.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

 

[Trailblazer]

You both are forgetting one. God doesn't WANT to. And that answers both, "God wants you to believe that he exist" and "God wants everyone to receive his message."

Being a servant and/or being obligated, are irrelevant. Those have nothing to do with "want."

You have no evidence to prove that "God wants everyone to believe that he exists" or that "God wants everyone to receive his message" so that is a bald assertion.

If God is Omnipotent and God wanted either of those two things, then God could have gotten them by whatever method He chose.

It is completely illogical to say that an Omnipotent God could not get whatever He wanted.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can say for certain about myself, but through observations of their responses provided, the majority of atheists are not arguing about an actual god. Instead, they are arguing against the beliefs held by theists(any and/or all in regards to a god) then applying logic and reasoning. I've noticed that a lot of theists do not see and/or understand this.

Then why do atheists avoid answering my questions when I try to apply logic and reasoning?
For example, I asked:

Trailblazer said: You expect God to do the things that would convince you if He is capable. Otherwise you consider God a dolt.
If that is not what you are saying, correct me.

Why should God do the things that would convince you just because God is capable of doing those things?

Why wouldn't Joe answer that question? Can you answer it?

And by logic, I mean, the capacity of human understanding. Pretty much anything else is just dishonest.

An example of a dishonest discussion would be to argue that a god's understanding of logic and reasoning is beyond our capability. That would make the whole discussion pointless.

Explain why that is dishonest, according to the following definition.

Dishonest: behaving or prone to behave in an untrustworthy or fraudulent way.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=dishonest+means

If a believer believes that God's understanding of logic and reasoning is beyond our capability for example, how is stating that as a belief dishonest? Is it because atheists have nowhere to go with their arguments that attempt to determine what God could/would/should do if that is true?

An example of an honest discussion, regardless of the topic, is based on our capacity of understanding, without even the need of pointing that out and/mentioning it.

I agree that all discussions should be based upon our capacity of understanding, but I would not label people as honest or dishonest, because that is a judgment and a discussion ender.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Now give me one good reason why God should give everyone a personal message or demonstrate His existence.

night 912 said: Because God WANTS to.

Two questions:

1. How do you know what God WANTS?

2. If God WANTS to give everyone a personal message or demonstrate His existence why hasn't God done so?

 

[CG Didymus]

You have no evidence to prove that "God wants everyone to believe that he exists" or that "God wants everyone to receive his message" so that is a bald assertion.

If God is Omnipotent and God wanted either of those two things, then God could have gotten them by whatever method He chose.

It is completely illogical to say that an Omnipotent God could not get whatever He wanted.

What's going on here? So does that mean that God doesn't want everyone to believe he exists and doesn't want everyone to receive his message? Yeah, that makes perfect sense on why his message and methods are flawed. It's on purpose to confound and confuse people.

 

[Trailblazer]

You just contradicted yourself with your preparation in moving the goalpost. Prepping with the word, "Himself," isn't going to help you.

I have no goalpost because I have no goals. I just speak honestly about what I believe and people can take it or leave it.

I did not contradict myself because God wants nothing for Himself although God wants things for humans.
That is no different from me saying I do not want a new Mercedes for myself but I want to buy a new Mercedes for my husband.

Everything that Baha'u'llah says about God is logical.
Otherwise I would not believe it since belief in God is not something I was ever seeking.

Whatever I present is based upon the belief that God is Omnipotent and Self-Sufficient.
I am going to present it and you can try to refute it with logic if you want to.

It does not affect God if we choose not to worship Him. Baha’u’llah made it perfectly clear that God has no needs since God is self-sufficient, thus God cannot have a “need” to be worshiped.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.” Gleanings, p. 148

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

God does not demand worship, God enjoins us to worship Him, and that is only for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

Given these excerpts from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, we can deduce that God wants humans to believe in Him and get His messages. However, it is abundantly clear that God needs nothing for Himself because God is self-sufficient, above having needs as humans have. Clearly, God sends Messengers only for the benefit of humans. God cares about humans so God wants them to believe in Him and His Messenger, but God does not need anyone to believe in Him and His Messenger because God does not have needs. Only humans have needs. God has the power to dispense with all of His creatures in one split second but He doesn’t only because He loves them. Why would God create humans if He did not love them? And if He did not love them anymore, why would He not just wipe them out? But He doesn’t do that. Instead God keeps sending Messengers in every age, no doubt hoping that people will recognize them, but not requiring that they do.

 

[CG Didymus]

Everything that Baha'u'llah says about God is logical.

Which makes what other religions say about God not true and not logical.

 

[Trailblazer]

What's going on here? So does that mean that God doesn't want everyone to believe he exists and doesn't want everyone to receive his message? Yeah, that makes perfect sense on why his message and methods are flawed. It's on purpose to confound and confuse people.

God does want everyone to believe He exists and God does want everyone to receive his message, but only if they choose to do so by virtue of their own free will.

The message is delivered via a Messenger, and people can choose to believe it or not believe it. It does not affect God one way or another because God is Self-Sufficient.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

 

[Trailblazer]

Which makes what other religions say about God not true and not logical.

I never said that what other religions say about God not true and not logical.
I only ever said that the dispensations of the older religions have been abrogated, and that the older religions do not have the solutions to the problems that humanity is facing in this new age.

Good luck in trying to parse out what the older religions say about God by reading their scriptures. By contrast, what Baha'u'llah wrote about God is straight to the point, so why would you go looking at older scriptures unless you were a member of those religions?

 

[Trailblazer]

A great excuse to hide the non-existence of any god. Stick with this and the "Only special peopleget the message" excuse to make sure you don't answer questions.

■The oneness of God
■The essential unity of religion
■The unity of mankind
■Harmony of religion and science
■Independent investigation of truth
■The need for universal compulsory education
■The need for a universal auxiliary language
■Obedience to government and non-involvement in partisan politics

What do the above mean?

They mean what they say.

 

[Trailblazer]

So why is it for our own benefit to drop everything that identifies us?

I never suggested anyone do that.

 

[Trailblazer]

So everyone drops the things that they now believe and follow Bahaullah. But you're not in the business of converting them.

So people know what they have to do.

Everyone is not going to drop the things that they now believe and follow Baha'u'llah and they do not have to do that in order for the goals of Baha'u'llah to be achieved, as people of disparate beliefs can work together in harmony and unity. We can see that happening in America right now, as the unity of mankind that was predicted by Baha'u'llah is unfolding before our very eyes. I'm so happy.

“The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

 

[Trailblazer]

How does this deal with climate change, overpopulation, the devastation of the worlds resources, consumerism, etc?

I already answered that on the other thread.

It was a plan to stop wars, not save the planet. You only turned to save the planet after I brought it up.

It is a plan to stop wars and save the planet and build the Kingdom of God on earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have just demonstrated how religions are created by Men. Whether it's Mark, Paul, Peter or Bahaullah it's Men doing the work. Nothing to do with any god. A god would be sending one message consistently, not changing the messages to fit the people.

That is absolutely absurd. Since God sends the message to suit the times people are living in, of course the message would be different at different times, in order to fit the needs of the people.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

“These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

You have no evidence to prove that "God wants everyone to believe that he exists" or that "God wants everyone to receive his message" so that is a bald assertion.

If God is Omnipotent and God wanted either of those two things, then God could have gotten them by whatever method He chose.

It is completely illogical to say that an Omnipotent God could not get whatever He wanted.

You have no evidence to prove a god exists, what it wants, doesn't want, the only evidence we have is that the Earth evolved, the species on it evolved, the plants evolved, hominids evolved and homo sapiens evolved.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Why should God do the things that would convince you just because God is capable of doing those things?

Prove he exists.

Prove he's not a manmade concept.

Prove which version of it is right.

Prove which messenger is right.

Set us on the right path.

Get rid of all the wrong paths.

I could go on but that will do for now.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Two questions:

1. How do you know what God WANTS?

2. If God WANTS to give everyone a personal message or demonstrate His existence why hasn't God done so?

How do you know what god wants, you don't even know if there is a god.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I have no goalpost because I have no goals. I just speak honestly about what I believe and people can take it or leave it.

Your goal is to convince everyoneBahaullah was right.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

God does want everyone to believe He exists and God does want everyone to receive his message, but only if they choose to do so by virtue of their own free will.

The message is delivered via a Messenger, and people can choose to believe it or not believe it. It does not affect God one way or another because God is Self-Sufficient.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

If god wants everyone to believe He exists and God does want everyone to receive his message. He's going about it in a very bad way.

 

[night912]

You are changing what I said to try to make your point about God's method, but it won't work, because I am one step ahead of you.

I said I might want a new Mercedes but since I don't need one I am happy to settle for my old Honda. I never said that I NEED give up other things. I said that I would have to give up other things I want in order to obtain a new Mercedes. I chose not to do what would have been needed in order to obtain a new Mercedes because I do not need a new Mercedes, and that's why I do not have a new Mercedes

Trailblazer said: I might want a new Mercedes but I do not need one because I have an old Honda. I would have to give up other things I want in order to procure a new Mercedes, so I am happy to settle for my old Honda.

How let's apply that analogy to God. God might want everyone to receive His message, but since God does not need everyone to receive His message, God is not going to give up what He wants in order to achieve everyone receiving His message. God wants everyone to recognize His Messenger by virtue of their own free will. God is not going to give up what He wants in order to achieve 100% receipt of His message.

Apparently you need to go back and read what I posted.

Now you speak for what God wants. Do you have a direct line to God?

There is absolutely no basis to claim that God wants everyone to receive his message because you have no evidence that is true, so if you are claiming that it is a bald assertion.

Below are my beliefs, but I am not asserting them because I cannot prove they are true:

Nothing God does is flawed because God is infallible. That means that is God sent Messengers, that cannot be a flawed method.

God always gets what God wants because God is All-Powerful... Thus nothing happens that is not in accordance with God's Will.

God gave humans free will so humans can choose what to believe or disbelieve.

God wanted people to recognize Baha'u'llah, otherwise God would not have sent Him. Some people chose to recognize Baha'u'llah and follow Him. It does not matter to God if to date most people have rejected Baha'u'llah, because God is Self-Sufficient, so God does not need anyone believing in Him or getting His message.

When you want to someone to see that their reasoning is irrational, using that person's way of reasoning from the opposite view usually does the trick.