God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

similar vein of thought occurs to me, the idea of which, implies much.

One thing it implies is that God does not take any marching orders from humans.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

 

[Trailblazer]

Prove it. And on this score, I am 99.9% that YOU HAVE NOTHING. You should just realize this and stop until you do have the goods.

I cannot prove that (a) the messages are not flawed and (b) it is the humans who do not get the messages that are flawed, because a and b are just a matter of belief and opinion.

Beliefs and opinions cannot be proven; if they could be proven they would be FACTS.

I'm simply not going to follow any of your prescriptions... I read what you write, and your words ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. There are no consequences to my life to not heeding you, or these "messengers", etc. There are no consequences to my life to not listening to "god" or anyone's ideas of "god." I don't need to heed any of it, and I can go on about my business without a single issue or detriment.

Whereas it is true that you can go about your business, you do not KNOW that it will be without a single issue or detriment, and you do not KNOW that there are or will be no consequences to your life for not listening to "god" or anyone's ideas of "god."

Since you do not KNOW any of that, you can only believe it; but if you assert that is the true that would be an argument from ignorance:

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

1. true
2. false
3. unknown between true or false
4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

I do not KNOW if you can go about your business without a single issue or detriment, and I do not KNOW if there are or will be consequences to your life for not listening to "god" or anyone's ideas of "god" -- so that is why I do not assert any of that. In short, I believe there might be consequences but I do not know if there will be consequences, and of there are consequences, I do not know what they will be, because I am not God. Only God knows what anyone's fate will be.

And that's really ALL YOU CAN THREATEN - is that something bad will happen, or imply that I am somehow being intellectually remiss. That's all you have... and it is NOTHING.

Show me where I EVER threatened anyone or called anyone intellectually remiss. It is quite the opposite. I said I don't KNOW what will happen to anyone in this life or in the afterlife, because I am not God. I do not even know my own fate, let alone anyone else's fate.

I am of the opinion that to anyone even slightly self-secure, your words should not even be considered after they are read. People with claims like yours are a dime a half-dozen-billion - and not one of them should be able to compel anyone to believe with the absolute crap they/you are peddling.

I make no claims. I only pass along the claims that Baha'u'llah made. Anyone can choose to ignore what I post or read it and consider it, that is the beauty of free will. One reason God gave everyone free will is so we would be free to believe or disbelieve in Him and His Messengers.

 

[Twilight Hue]

One of us is wrong.

 

[MNoBody]

One thing it implies is that God does not take any marching orders from humans.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

what general would ever take orders from some fabricated robotic service droid?

 

[Jos]

I cannot prove that (a) the messages are not flawed and (b) it is the humans who do not get the messages that are flawed, because a and b are just a matter of belief and opinion.

Beliefs and opinions cannot be proven; if they could be proven they would be FACTS.

Whereas it is true that you can go about your business, you do not KNOW that it will be without a single issue or detriment, and you do not KNOW that there are or will be no consequences to your life for not listening to "god" or anyone's ideas of "god."

Since you do not KNOW any of that, you can only believe it; but if you assert that is the true that would be an argument from ignorance:

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

1. true
2. false
3. unknown between true or false
4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

I do not KNOW if you can go about your business without a single issue or detriment, and I do not KNOW if there are or will be consequences to your life for not listening to "god" or anyone's ideas of "god" -- so that is why I do not assert any of that. In short, I believe there might be consequences but I do not know if there will be consequences, and of there are consequences, I do not know what they will be, because I am not God. Only God knows what anyone's fate will be.

Show me where I EVER threatened anyone or called anyone intellectually remiss. It is quite the opposite. I said I don't KNOW what will happen to anyone in this life or in the afterlife, because I am not God. I do not even know my own fate, let alone anyone else's fate.

I make no claims. I only pass along the claims that Baha'u'llah made. Anyone can choose to ignore what I post or read it and consider it, that is the beauty of free will. One reason God gave everyone free will is so we would be free to believe or disbelieve in Him and His Messengers.

So you're just gonna ignore my post?

 

[Trailblazer]

what general would ever take orders from some fabricated robotic service droid?

What omnipotent God would ever take orders from humans?

 

[Trailblazer]

So you're just gonna ignore my post?

What post was that? I did not get an Alert of any post from you.

Edited to add: I just saw the link to your post in my Word document, so I will answer it as soon as I have time.
I do not always answer posts in the order that they were received but I never ignore people who have sincere questions. I have an answer to your question.

 

[ppp]

One thing it implies is that God does not take any marching orders from humans.

It doesn't anything to do with anything ordering any god to do anything.

 

[Jos]

What post was that? I did not get an Alert of any post from you.

Oh sorry, this post:

Which ones aren't? Can you please show me?

That was in response to your quote saying that the prophecies weren't vague:
God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't anything to do with anything ordering any god to do anything.

I did not say it did, but the implication is there, given the expectation is there.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh sorry, this post:



That was in response to your quote saying that the prophecies weren't vague:
God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

Thanks, that was my mistake. I did receive the Alert but I had not read the post yet.
I get so many Alerts that I have to copy/paste them all into a Word document and answer them one by one.

 

[ppp]

I did not say it did, but the implication is there, given the expectation is there.

Not from me. If you infer such, that is all you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which ones aren't? Can you please show me?

I cannot post all the non-vague prophecies on this forum, but I will post you one example and explain why it is not vague. Then maybe later I can post some others if you are still interested.

There are so many prophecies but Micah 7:12 is a good example of a prophecy that is not vague..

Please note that Baha’u’llah had no control over His own destiny for the last 40 years of His Life after He declared His mission because He was deemed a prisoner of the government He was banished and exiled from place to place. The following prophecy was fulfilled by these exiles and banishments.

Map of Baháʼu'lláh's banishments

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.

From: William Sears, Thief in the Night

 

[Trailblazer]

Not from me. If you infer such, that is all you.

Sure sounds like an expectation to me: If a perfect and omnipotent god wanted me to believe and understand his message perfectly, this is what I expect He would do.

If a perfect and omnipotent god wanted me to believe and understand his message perfectly, then he could deliver it in a way that I believe and understand perfectly. No matter how profoundly flawed or obstinate I might be.

Either he does not want me to believe and understand perfectly, or he is not a perfect and omnipotent god.
#7 Joe W, Yesterday at 2:48 AM

Of course the usual ploy of "some" atheists is that they do not expect anything from God since they do not believe God exists, but that won't work with me because you are talking about what you believe God would/should do to convince you that He exists if God exists, and that is no different from me talking about what I believe an existing God has done.... The reason it is no different is because neither one of us can prove God exists or does not exist so we are on a level playing field.

 

[ppp]

One thing it implies is that God does not take any marching orders from humans.

Sure sounds like an expectation to me: If a perfect and omnipotent god wanted me to believe and understand his message perfectly, this is what I expect He would do.

Cute. But as you keep pointing out, I don't believe a god exists. I cannot order the non-existent. Hell I cannot expect anything of the non-existent.

This is just you trying to treat a hypothetical as though it were real, while pretending you are still talking about that hypothetical.

 

[Trailblazer]

Cute. But as you keep pointing out, I don't believe a god exists. I cannot order the non-existent. Hell I cannot expect anything of the non-existent.

That is true, logically speaking. I mean I cannot expect to drive to the grocery store in a car unless I have a car.

And it is a darn good thing you do not have those expectations of God, since God will not fulfill those expectations, unless of course He chooses to.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

So God could choose to deliver His message in a way that you believe and understand perfectly. I am not God's secretary so I don't know what is on His agenda.

This is just you trying to treat a hypothetical as though it were real, while pretending you are still talking about that hypothetical.

If you talk about God as if He is real what am I supposed to think?

Have you ever noticed how much time atheists spend talking about the hypothetical god?
What I often say when I observe this phenomenon is that If I was an atheist I would not be talking about god; I would be off sunning myself on a beach somewhere.

But alas! I made the mistake of believing in Baha'u'llah so now I am in for the long haul...

That reminds me of some lines from a favorite movie of mine.
It is funny while at the same time it is not funny.... No offense, but instead I am here with you.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Aupmanyav]

To me it is absurd that there would be more than one God but that is just my personal opinion.
Why would we need more than one God?
Besides, there is more evidence for the One True God than there is for hundreds or thousands of Gods and Goddesses.

Do we really need even one. We (atheists) seem to be doing quite well in spite of believing in any.
This talk of evidence does not suit you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do we really need even one. We (atheists) seem to be doing quite well in spite of believing in any.
This talk of evidence does not suit you.

I believe we all need one God because God is required to keep the Earth running, but that does not mean that atheists need to believe in God since who believes in God has no effect upon God.

You won't get an argument from me. I agree, atheists do quite well without a belief in God.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen .."
God could prove that He exists IF He wanted to. Baha'u'llah wrote that.
I think that verse means is that we need faith that is possible to find God if we earnestly seek Him.
All of that is false, but I am not going to waste my time explaining what is actually true, because you would not believe it anyway.

Even his pen is resplendent. Does it shine in dark? To what heights can ego go!
What I see is only that your Iranian preacher wants to avoid giving any proof for himself or his Allah. It may have worked with Iranian people 200 years ago, it will not work with educated people of 21st Century.
Yes, I know. To see the Emperor's new clothes I have to get my nose cut.
Yes, I would not be satisfied with your quotes from what your Iranian preacher had written or what his son and great grandson tried to explain.

 

[Trailblazer]

But do you also agree that these are not absolute proofs that it is truth either?

Yes, I agree.

How did Joseph Smith do what he did?

For one who had little schooling, Joseph Smith left an unusually extensive literary record. From 1828, when he began work on the Book of Mormon at age twenty-two, to 1844, when he was killed at age thirty-eight, Smith produced thousands of pages of revelations, translations, correspondence, declarations, discourses, journals, and histories. His records will fill approximately thirty volumes when publication is complete.

Though he was intelligent and strong willed, no ordinary talent can account for his success. His rise as church leader, city builder, and theologian rested on what he believed was a gift of revelation, by which he meant direct communication from God in the form of visions into heaven, heavenly visitors, or more commonly the words of God coming through direct inspiration.

The revelations derived their credibility partly from the prophetic traditions of the Bible. Joseph Smith moved into a role well known to Christians. He was another Moses or Paul. To most Christians, the Bible stood above all other books precisely because it was the word of God to prophets. Now, the Mormons claimed, God spoke again.
One early convert to the church approached the preaching of Mormon missionaries skeptically but then reasoned:
"I found, on searching the Scriptures, that from the commencement of time, through every age, God continued to send prophets to the people, and always when God had a message for the people, he chose a special messenger to send it by, and it was always headed with a “thus saith the Lord.” . . . If he supplied every other age and people with prophets and special messengers, why not this?"

They are one reason for Yale literary critic Harold Bloom’s comment that Smith was “an authentic religious genius” who “surpassed all Americans, before or since, in the possession and expression of what could be called the religion-making imagination.” Latter-day Saints, of course, consider the translations to have come from God.

Origins
The origins of the translations are not easily identified to everyone’s satisfaction. Smith had little education and no history of literary experimentation. Indeed, nothing in his background prepared him either to translate or to lead a church. He brought neither wealth, social position, nor education to his work.

Do you think that Joseph Smith were a messenger as well and if not, why?

I do not believe that Joseph Smith was a Messenger of God because of what the authoritative writings of the Baha'i Faith say about Him.

“Joseph Smith we do not consider a Prophet, minor or otherwise. Certainly no reference he made could have foretold the Coming of this Revelation in his capacity as a Prophet.” (Letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual, 21 Feb. 1942)

What is the True Status or Station of Joseph Smith?

SHOGHI Effendi rightly explains Joseph Smith as a SEER and not a PROPHET! He is not an independent prophet—a Manifestation who reveals a book—nor even a minor prophet of God like Daniel or Ezekiel who were firm in the Covenant of God under the Manifestation of their day. Smith is only a seer! "Seer" means that he can "see" certain things that are true, but not that he is some sort of infallible guide, or even that he is part of the religion of God! Shoghi Effendi makes this distinction absolutely clear and it cannot be ignored!

Joseph Smith was a seer, NOT A PROPHET OF GOD, NEITHER MAJOR NOR MINOR PROPHET. (Memories of 'Abdu'l-Baha, by R. A. Brown, p. 117)

What this means is that Smith could see visions and glimpses of the future, but he did not speak or write on behalf of God and is not a prophet of God.

Baha'i Faith Entry By Troops
*************************************************
Please note that the link to the website above is not an official website of the Baha'i Faith.
The information I posted about Joseph Smith is accurate but there is other information on that website that is inaccurate.