God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Ancient Soul]

Hey Ancient, I really like your zeal for truth and critical thinking. But aren't souls here to evolve - that includes virtues like patience, compassion, respect...? Are we just to know and talk about or be?

I agree with some of your points but TB doesn't deserve to be treated like a laughing stock. It's not what you say but how you say it.

Sorry if you take it that way. I just get overly annoyed when people resort to blatant deceit all the time. And I'm not trying to make a "laughing stock" out of anyone, just trying to make them face the error of their ways, and get them to understand that it's sooo not acceptable.

But I can partially agree with you, when some people just refuse to see the error of their ways, I should learn to just let it go. I'm working on that.

 

[Trailblazer]

X exists is a claim. Doesn't matter if X is a god or grass.

But I never said God exists. I said "I believe" that God exists.

 

[ppp]

But I never said God exists. I said "I believe" that God exists.

Which is a claim that what you believe is true. Are you under the impression that it only counts if you say the words "I claim"? This isn't a game of "Simon says"

 

[Trailblazer]

A belief is not a claim, not by any stretch of the imagination and not by any dictionary definition..

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: CLAIM | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Belief:

1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

https://www.google.com/search

Belief: the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:

BELIEF | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

 

[CG Didymus]

I consider the fulfillment of prophecies and the predictions Baha'u'llah made that came to pass as icing on the cake, but it IS NOT the cake

What was the cake again? Besides, how many people just eat the cake and not the icing? Some people stick their finger and take a swept of icing and lick it off their fingers. But anyway, back to prophecies and predictions. A guy says he's from God. Then he does miracles... like healing crippled people and walking on water and casting out demons. Then predict he will rise from the dead and then he does. That's some pretty tasty icing. But, Baha'is tell us those things didn't literally happen. Then I say then if those were fictional, or worse, lies, then why believe in that guy. His followers made the stuff up.

With your guy, not all prophecies of every religion are fulfilled, yet Baha'is say they are. So that's not true. Plus the prophecies and predictions are vague enough to not be all that great. So the icing isn't as sweet as it should be.

IF you accepted Baha'u'llah as being from God THEN the logical thing to do would be to accept everything He wrote as true. But you don't accept that so I do not expect that you would accept anything He said is true.

Why would someone accept everything he said? It is doubtful any Baha'i has ever read everything Baha'u'llah said. So that means they accepted him on a limited amount of things he said. Would you agree with that? If so, then what happens if you read something that you disagree with? It sounds like a Baha'i is expected just to go along with it.

Has God been consistent with his messages and his laws? Does he send messengers that are special creations that are the only ones that can hear and understand God and then tell us what God wants? Again, have these messengers been consistent with what they say about God? Have they been perfect reflections of God? Not necessarily, the stories about them are inconsistent with what they say about God and what he wants from people. And that is explained by saying that the people that wrote the messages maybe got it wrong? And the people that interpreted those messages got it wrong? Well then those things we thought we knew about God can't be trusted.

I am sure I have already explained all of this from my perspective. Is there any reason why I should explain it again? Are you getting any closer to understanding?

So let me explain it to you. Has God been consistent with his messages and laws? No. Baha'i explanation... God changes his laws with different people at different times. But also, the people misinterpreted and added some of their own things into it. So we can't trust those old religions.

Baha'is say Adam was a manifestation of God? Who else says that? Not Judaism. Not Christianity. And, I don't know what Islam says, but it would be news to me if they did. But Baha'is say he is and name a cycle after him? And the other problem... Baha'is don't believe the Biblical story about Adam. So where does Baha'u'llah get that Adam was a manifestation? And then comes the avoidance... "That religion is no longer relevant, so who cares?" Baha'is have declared most all of it figurative, so "case closed". Not important.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is a belief, not a claim.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: CLAIM | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
https://www.google.com/search

Belief:
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
His belief in God gave him hope during difficult times.
Recent scandals have shaken many people's belief in (= caused people to have doubts about) politicians.
BELIEF | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

I never said it was proof. I said it was evidence. If it was proof it would not be a belief, it would be a fact.
I believe that my belief is true. I cannot prove it is true (to anyone except myself) so it is not a fact.

See it however you want to see it, I am not trying to stop you from seeing it that way.

Why are you asking me, or are you? Apparently you consider the answers we give you flawed and unconvincing, so I do not understand why you ask the same questions over and over again. Why not just accept that you will never believe in God or Baha'u'llah, or go looking somewhere else for answers, or just do as most atheists do, settle for being an atheist and enjoy the only life you believe you have?

No blame is assigned to anyone. We simply see what you do not see. There are reasons for that that only you know, and God also knows because God is All-Knowing.

Does Baha'u'llah claim to be sent from God? And, do you believe him? So he provides proof that you have accepted as true?

 

[CG Didymus]

That is not a tactic, it was just a question, apparently a question you cannot answer, so you deflected. Deflection is a tactic some nonbelievers employ in order to avoid the HONEST questions that believers ask them. I can give you examples.

Here is an example of a personal attack:
CG Didymus said: Sorry, if you don't know, none of us here can help you. The first thing you need to do is admit it to yourself. "I, Trailblazer, sometimes say things that may sound disrespectful."

I consider that a personal attack because it is a negative comment about me that implies that I am being disrespectful of others, that I am not "admitting" something to myself, that I am in denial.

I'm only stating my belief. Sometimes, to me, you sound like you're being disrespectful.

God did deliver His message to everyone, through Baha'u'llah. God uses general delivery, not special delivery.

If people cannot be bothered to go to their mailbox, get their mail, open it and read it, it is no skin off God's nose because God needs nobody's belief.

Wah, wah, wah, if daddy does not buy me a bicycle for Christmas, daddy does not love me.

Plus every time you say, "That's logic 101", that implies that we're don't get something that is so basic and so obvious anybody should understand it. But, if you don't see it that way it is your choice since you have free will. Oh, that's another thing you do. And implies, "Yes, everything you just said is wrong, but since you have free will, you can say anything you want... even if it is not true." Oh, and there is something about me having a "vendetta" against Baha'is? That was you wasn't it?

 

[CG Didymus]

I consider the Bible "in its entirety" to be evidence of God, evidence that God exists.

I thought you said you have never read it in its entirety? You have now? What do you think of the book of Nephilim?

 

[CG Didymus]

Good morning CG - Today the 18th is the Birth of the Bab, tomorrow the 19th is the Birth of Baha'u'llah the Twin holy days. I wish you all the best on these very special days for Baha'i.

I came across this last night, it is some time since I had read this book, I wish I had read it more now The Promised Day Is Come | Bahá’í Reference Library

This is the Section called 'The Continuity of Revelation' and Shoghi Effendi has offered this, to which any Baha'i should consider deeply in any rely they choose to give;

"The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá’u’lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá’u’lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.............."

This book does not hold back, it is a masterpiece, Shoghi Effendi quotes Baha'u'llah often and it lays out the Faith from the beginning, the warnings given and the future we face.

It would be a challenging book for a Christian of Muslim to read, but in the light of the above comment, all should. They one and all would face great personal conflicts.



Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) is the source of all knowledge to the material world. There is numerous writings available as to how this Revelation flowed from Baha'ullah's lips and Pen for hours on end that no secretary could keep up with

".....When Bahá’u’lláh returned to Baghdád, His Kurdish admirers followed. The sight of ‘ulamá and Ṣúfí shaykhs flocking to visit Bahá’u’lláh astonished the religious leaders of the city, who also began to seek His presence—and became enthralled. Their esteem for Him in turn attracted others, from poets and mystics to government officials, and further spread His fame.

This period, Shoghi Effendi tells us, saw an “enormous expansion in the scope and volume of Bahá’u’lláh’s writings ... The verses that streamed during those years from His pen, described as ‘a copious rain’ by Himself, whether in the form of epistles, exhortations, commentaries, apologies, dissertations, prophecies, prayers, odes or specific Tablets” revivified and transformed the Bábí community. It was a period so prolific that, on average, the unrecorded verses He would reveal in a single day and night equalled in number those of the Qur’án. “As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred.”

So in one 24 hour period, Baha'u'llah at that time was revealing (unrecorded) verses equivalent to the size of the Quran, let alone what was managed to be recorded. No learning needed, no references needed, no prior thought needed. This has many things written about how revelation came and how during this revelation people would enter with questions, forget what they were going to ask in their astonishment of the revelation, only to find their question answered some time later during the talk.



I see Trailblazer means no disrespect, I do see years of frustration welling within our souls, but that is our flaw CG. If what is being offered is what it is, then you may see the frustration had some merit. In saying that, frustration is only good if it enables to turn it into action.

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony, Are you able to get together and celebrate?

 

[CG Didymus]

Which is a claim that what you believe is true. Are you under the impression that it only counts if you say the words "I claim"? This isn't a game of "Simon says"

It seems like by saying that it is not a "claim", they can say they don't have to provide proof. But then they do provide the things that have proved it them. His person. His stacks and stacks of writings. Then the icing... they say he has fulfilled all prophecies of all religions. And has made predictions that have come true. So then we question all those things, and then comes the avoidance.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks Tony, Are you able to get together and celebrate?

There is my wife and I CG. Our community is without power today from 5am to 1pm, 2 hours to go and already 33 will get to 36 to 38 C today.

Covid-19 has put a lot of events on hold as we are a high risk Aboriginal community.

We had a zoom yesterday.

Have a great day, Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not a claim because I am not claiming it is true. I believe it is true.

CG Didymus said: If you say, "I believe this is true"... isn't that a claim?

Trailblazer said: It is a belief, not a claim.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: CLAIM | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
https://www.google.com/search

Belief:
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
His belief in God gave him hope during difficult times.
Recent scandals have shaken many people's belief in (= caused people to have doubts about) politicians.
BELIEF | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

So if I assert that Baha'u'llah is from God? Then that would be a claim. But if I only "belief" he is from God, then that is not a claim. At this point just go ahead and assert it, claim it and believe it. You've proven it to yourself. And if you don't want to, or can't prove it to us, don't worry about it. We'll understand. You don't have any evidence or proof that we will accept as true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So then we question all those things, and then comes the avoidance.

I do not see we avoided the questions and all the proof I have found I have also given to you.

If you do not see them as proof, then that is fine.

Those that say they are not proof, fine, why carry on tit for tat?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

LOL again!

You've got their game nailed perfectly.

Yes, I understand it, because I got hit with it from Born-again Christians, from Mormons, from JW's and from Baha'is. Which is interesting. Why do only some religions go out and "spread" the word about their religion, while others just practice their religion?

 

[CG Didymus]

There is my wife and I CG. Our community is without power today from 5am to 1pm, 2 hours to go and already 33 will get to 36 to 38 C today.

Covid-19 has put a lot of events on hold as we are a high risk Aboriginal community.

We had a zoom yesterday.

Have a great day, Regards Tony

Well, since we are talking about "flaws" in presenting the message... How have you been doing in getting the Baha'i message out in your community? When I was hanging out with Baha'is they had mostly firesides, then they tried "mass teaching" events. Most of them were on Native American reservations or were in Hispanic neighborhoods. Later, a Baha'i friend put together a Baha'i youth dance group that went out and performed.

 

[CG Didymus]

But I never said God exists. I said "I believe" that God exists.

Or, is it, "I know God exists, but since you don't, I'll just say I believe he exists"? That way, you don't have get into the endless debate about God existing or not. Kind of like the debate whether God's method of getting his message out is flawed.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not see we avoided the questions and all the proof I have found I have also given to you.

If you do not see them as proof, then that is fine.

Those that say they are not proof, fine, why carry on tit for tat?

Regards Tony

It's dinner time here. I'll check in with you when it becomes tomorrow here. But, it's still today, Saturday.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Yes, I understand it, because I got hit with it from Born-again Christians, from Mormons, from JW's and from Baha'is. Which is interesting. Why do only some religions go out and "spread" the word about their religion, while others just practice their religion?

I think there are at least two reasons for this.

They are "required" to convert others to their beliefs, or at least have something in their religious texts that implies they will get some extra "bonus points" for everyone they can convert. (Although I'm not familiar with the Mormon religion so am not certain about them.)

The second reason a lot of religions try converting everyone, even to the point of having religious wars, is out of ego. Thinking that if there are other religions, their very existence implies that THEY could be, shudder, WRONG! So they go all out to convert everyone by using whatever it takes in the hope that everyone will convert to THEIR religion, and THAT would "prove" that THEY were "right" and all the other religions were "wrong".

 

[Trailblazer]

With your guy, not all prophecies of every religion are fulfilled, yet Baha'is say they are. So that's not true. Plus the prophecies and predictions are vague enough to not be all that great. So the icing isn't as sweet as it should be.

Not as sweet as you like it. Since many prophecies can be interpreted to mean different things we know thay are not reliable as proof.

Why would someone accept everything he said? It is doubtful any Baha'i has ever read everything Baha'u'llah said. So that means they accepted him on a limited amount of things he said. Would you agree with that? If so, then what happens if you read something that you disagree with? It sounds like a Baha'i is expected just to go along with it.

We do not need to read everything He wrote. We believe that Baha'u'llah is infallible so that means everything He wrote is true. Why would it matter if we agree with it? God is infallible and we are fallible.

So let me explain it to you. Has God been consistent with his messages and laws? No. Baha'i explanation... God changes his laws with different people at different times. But also, the people misinterpreted and added some of their own things into it. So we can't trust those old religions.

I agree, we cannot trust them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Does Baha'u'llah claim to be sent from God? And, do you believe him? So he provides proof that you have accepted as true?

Baha'u'llah made the claim and I believe His claim because He provided proof that I have accepted as true.