God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

Why should they when no evidence or proof is offered, just talk, talk and talk?

Why do they believe their older religions for which there is no verifiable evidence at all, not even any original scriptures?

Basically God's / Allah's method of sending messages is a complete failure and reflects badly on God's / Allah's intelligence itself.

It is the ONLY method that would ever work, logically speaking.
How else is God going to deliver messages. fly down to earth? Get real. Almost eight years I have been posting almost exclusively to atheists and not one of them has come up with a better method by which God could communicate to humans.

It has done nothing other than creating strife in the world again and again.

None of that is God's fault, it is all caused by humans.

Same for your religion.

What strive has it caused? It was all the others who rejected it that caused the strife, and the Covenant-breakers... again, human error.

You say that other religions were good for their times and have become out-dated, corrupted now. The other religions feel no necessity to make any change. They also have hymns of peace and brotherhood. So, what is new?

Of course they don't want to change...They act as if time stands still. They are living in the past. They can understand the need for a new car or a new house... Everything around them changes but they cannot understand the need for a new religion, because they are attached to their religions. It is all emotional, not logical.

 

[night912]

Of course that is the reason they will not relinquish their religion, they are convinced that it is true, but that is not what this conversation was about, it was about what more people do not recognize a new Messenger:

I said: "very few of those people want to or are willing to relinquish that faith that is the MAIN reason why only a few people recognize a new Messenger when He appears on earth."

Not what this conversation is about? Did you even read what I said?

You said: "Your reason......the MAIN reason why only a few people recognize a new Messenger when He appears on earth."

Your reason is not the actual MAIN reason, therefore your claim is false. The actual MAIN reason is what I've said, "They don't believe."

So why would you even suggest that it's not relevant to this conversation.

Because I do not believe Christianity is the current religion that God wants me to follow.

Exactly the same reason as theirs. So why can't you accept that their reason is the same as yours.

 

[night912]

It is the ONLY method that would ever work, logically speaking.
How else is God going to deliver messages. fly down to earth? Get real. Almost eight years I have been posting almost exclusively to atheists and not one of them has come up with a better method by which God could communicate to humans.

No, he doesn't have to fly down to earth. He could just teleport to earth and tell everyone his message.

One message, not lost in translations.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not what this conversation is about? Did you even read what I said?

You said: "Your reason......the MAIN reason why only a few people recognize a new Messenger when He appears on earth."

Your reason is not the actual MAIN reason, therefore your claim is false. The actual MAIN reason is what I've said, "They don't believe."

The main reason people do not recognize a new Messenger is because they believe their religion is true so they don't believe another religion could be true. Thus very few of those people want to or are willing to relinquish their religion.

Exactly the same reason as theirs. So why can't you accept that their reason is the same as yours.

My reason is not exactly the same because I do not have an older religion. IF I had an older religion I hope I would be willing to look at a newer religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, he doesn't have to fly down to earth. He could just teleport to earth and tell everyone his message.

One message, not lost in translations.

Baha'u'llah wrote 15,000 Tablets. How is God going to tell all that to 7.8 billion people?
I guess God would have to spend about 100 years down here talking, flying from country to country.
Then someone would have to write it down, because no human could ever memorize 15,000 Tablets

Get real. There is a reason God uses Messengers and it is perfectly logical.

 

[Aupmanyav]

- Why do they believe their older religions for which there is no verifiable evidence at all, not even any original scriptures?
- It is the ONLY method that would ever work, logically speaking. How else is God going to deliver messages. fly down to earth?
- None of that is God's fault, it is all caused by humans.
- What strive has it caused? It was all the others who rejected it that caused the strife, ..
- Of course they don't want to change...They act as if time stands still. They are living in the past. They can understand the need for a new car or a new house... Everything around them changes but they cannot understand the need for a new religion, because they are attached to their religions. It is all emotional, not logical.

- That also is wrong. And that is why I became an atheist.
- I see no logic in God's / Allah's method of sending messages. He could write it in the sky. God could have checked with humans. A printed sheet appearing for any person, any place, any time, in the language that the person understands or the walls, roof start speaking for someone who is not literate. Say that God cannot do that!
- God starts it by sending people with messages who always come up with new religions. Whose fault is this, if not God's?
- Why would not they reject when no proof is offered?
- There is nothing new in Bahai religion accept a new leader whom they call 'manifestation'. Not a 'nabi', messenger, because terming their Iranian preacher as 'nabi' would have brought immediate death in Iran. No off-shoot of Islam dares to term their leader as 'nabi'. They have used new terms. Bahaollah termed himself as 'manifestation', Mirza Ghulam Ahmad termed himself as 'mahdi'.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'u'llah wrote 15,000 Tablets. How is God going to tell all that to 7.8 billion people?
I guess God would have to spend about 100 years down here talking, flying from country to country.
Then someone would have to write it down, because no human could ever memorize 15,000 Tablets.

Why did Bahaollah had to be that verbose and still be unable to convince anyone except a few Bahais?
And what can one write if writing so much except word salad?
Look at Upanishads, one contains just 12 verses (Mandukya Upanishad), Ishavasya Upanishad (18 verses). Look at 'Brahma Sutras', in all 555 short curt lines (aphorisms, not even full sentences). BhagawadGita has 620 verses ascribed to Krishna. If one has something worth saying, then it can be said very briefly. But if one is trying to make falsehood into truth, one has to write much more.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

That's it exactly. The Baha'i claim is that all those guys were "manifestations" of God. So Baha'i have to believe not only that they existed, but were special creations of God that he communicated with and had them tell the rest of us what's going on with God.

But who were these people? Do the stories in the Bible make them out to be "manifestations" of God? I don't think they do. But besides that Baha'is don't even believe the Bible stories are literally true. So I ask them all the time that to me, that makes the stories fictional, or that other word... mythical. But, naturally they have "proof" or "evidence" that those people were real and were manifestations of God. And that "evidence" is that their prophet said so.

But he also said something interesting about Abraham. They claim that the Bible story is wrong in saying Isaac was taken to be sacrificed. Their prophet says it was Ishmael... Really? As if any of it real? So just like born-again Christians, Baha'is have committed themselves to believing everything their prophet has said as the absolute truth from God. Therefore, they "know" it is true, because he said so. And maybe it is, who knows? But, if it's true, then God's method of communicating is maybe getting a little better, at least he had the prophet write his own stuff down, but overall, it's still flawed.

They believe because their man said it, it must be true. The strange thing is they expect us to accept that.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

There is a book available to explain all God's Messengers.

Spoiler

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

I may have suggested that before.

Regards Tony

That's not proof, doesn't explain or anything else. It might for you, but for the rest of us it shows your lack of proof.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Of course not. Humans have existed for about 200,000 years.

I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about them because I believe in Baha'u'llah and that he was a Manifestation of God who was infallible.

It makes it true for me. JK Rowling is not a Manifestation of God so he is not infallible.

No, I do not believe my evidence is false. Evidence is just evidence, and it makes something true or false depending upon who is viewing it.

So who, when, where does this Adam come from in your belief?

Saying he's a Manifestation of God doesn't make it so for anyone but those who believe. JK Rowling is a woman, the most famous living writer.

My evidence is far better than yours. Because mine has been verified over and over again by many scientists, archaeologists and historians. Writing isn't evidence until it's verified by an outside independent force.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's not proof, doesn't explain or anything else. It might for you, but for the rest of us it shows your lack of proof.

Are you the only one who hold the "truth"?
You seem to deny any other explanation then your own, that is shown in every single post you made in RF.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Hmmm? That's not a very good way to do it. Sounds flawed. It's almost like God gave people prophecies and other things to look for, then didn't fulfill those prophecies in a very convincing way, and then blamed the people for not recognizing his messenger.

It be like I told you I was sending you a special gift that will change your life and it will arrive in two days in a brown truck with a guy wearing brown shorts and shirt. Then, it doesn't come. Then I say it was your fault. It did come. A woman came in a white truck and you turned her away. Why didn't you accept my gift? What would you say? That you were looking for a "literal" brown truck and a man with brown shorts and shirt?

The whole thing about god sending messages and Bah'is believing it's Baháʼu'lláh andwhether it's a flawed way of sending a message canbe summed up by looking at the effectiveness of Baháʼu'lláh.

Major religious groups - Wikipedia

Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

I'm sure there's more proof of effectiveness on Google. But it's clear that this messenger from god isn't doing a very good job. If Baha'is believe The Baháʼí writings describe a single, personal, inaccessible, omniscient, omnipresent, imperishable, and almighty God who is the creator of all things in the universe.

Shouldn't they expect someone more effective than an obscure Persian who got himself locked up for 24 years? Shouldn't they expect to have got his message out and convinced people it was from god? Explaining it away by saying some have other religions, atheists, not convinced, etc only goes to show he was just an ordinary mortal and no messenger.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

It did come, and then people either sent the package back to sender without even opening it, or they opened it and did not like what was in it and then sent it back.

William Sears, Thief in the Night
.
For some people, what is offered by God is never good enough. They will always find something they do not agree with and use that as a reason to send the entire package back.

Then the method of delivering messages is flawed.

Because the majority don't get any message and many who do reject it. Or there is no message just people thinking they are getting something.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Baha'u'llah did usher in an age of peace:

When did this age of peace occur?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

And I'm not talking about the 85%. I'm referring to your claim...."very few of those people want to or are willing to relinquish that faith that is the MAIN reason why only a few people recognize a new Messenger when He appears on earth."

That only proves how low they set the bar for their messengers from god. Most have never heard of him and those who have reject him. That indicates he was just a mortal man.

 

[night912]

My reason is not exactly the same because I do not have an older religion. IF I had an older religion I hope I would be willing to look at a newer religion.

Actually, it's the same, you don't believe that in Christianity.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

One would think that if Baha'u'llah predicted exactly what was going to happen in America over 150 years ago that would at least lend some credence to His message, but unfortunately most people don't think logically, they think with their emotions.

Oh well, maybe they don't have a television set, or maybe they just don't care.

AMERICA PASSING THROUGH CRISIS

Can you point me to the place Baha'u'llah predicted exactly what was going to happen in America? Because so far you only posted a link to a guy who said it in 1950 and a Muslim who was falling in line with many other Muslims.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Can you explain why, if people want to or are willing to relinquish that faith, they have not done so?
To me, the evidence is here:

Religion Adherents Percentage
Christianity 2.4 billion[1] 31.4%[1]
Islam 1.9 billion 24%
Hinduism 1.2 billion[1] 15.4%
Secular[a]/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist 1.1 billion 14.1%
Buddhism 506 million 6%
Chinese traditional religion[c] 394 million 5%
Ethnic religions excluding some in separate categories 300 million 3%
African traditional religions 100 million[4] 1.2%
Sikhism 26 million 0.30%
Spiritism 15 million 0.19%
Judaism 14.7 million[5] 0.18%
Bahá'í 7.0 million 0.09%
Jainism 4.2 million 0.05%
Shinto 4.0 million 0.05%
Cao Dai 4.0 million 0.05%
Zoroastrianism 2.6 million 0.03%
Tenrikyo 2.0 million 0.02%
Animism 1.9 million 0.02%
Neo-Paganism 1.0 million 0.01%
Unitarian Universalism 0.8 million 0.01%
Rastafari 0.6 million 0.007%
total 7.79 billion 100%

List of religious populations - Wikipedia

Yes, that would be irrational to generalize from a small sample set; but I am not only going by comments on a forum, I am going by statistics, as noted above.

Why do so few follow Baha? That's an easy one to answer. Most have never heard of him and those that have rejected him. fine for a mortal man, very poor for a messenger from god.

That is a legitimate observation, not all people have heard of the Baha'i Faith,

and there would no doubt be a lot more Baha'is if more people in the world knew about the Faith. A useful statistic to look at would be the percentage of people who have heard of the Bahai Faith who have left their older religions and become Baha'is.

Hard to hear a man who couldn't even convince his jailors. Fine for a mortal man, very bad for a messenger from god.

 

[night912]

Baha'u'llah wrote 15,000 Tablets. How is God going to tell all that to 7.8 billion people?

I don't know, could it be because he's God?

I guess God would have to spend about 100 years down here talking, flying from country to country.

Exactly, in 100 years the messenge reached 7.8 billion people, that's is faster than 150+ years and..............how many people?

Then someone would have to write it down, because no human could ever memorize 15,000 Tablets

That "someone" would be God. Obviously it wouldn't take long since 15,000 Tablets didn't take long.

Get real. There is a reason God uses Messengers and it is perfectly logical.

It's real that 100 years is less than 150+ years. It's perfectly illogical to think that 150+ years is more effective than 100 years.

Ahhhhhh. The evidence, pieces of information and fact indicating the irrational thinking of Trailblazer. Thanks for providing the evidence.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I only care about Baha'u'llah's peace plan because I believe it is the solution. I am a Baha'i, not a Hindu.

How would Baha'u'llah's peace plan work?