God and Depression

[Caladan]

Its called not being an @$$h0|3.

Oh come on. have you walked outside? on the streets? having a drink at the pub? even the cinema?
On occasion, there are ******** around us. some of us shrug it off for the most part. other take it as another Spanish Inquisition.

 

[Frank Merton]

Well. good. then go on and do as you do par usual. what ever that is. or how enigmatic and mystical it is. which is why it's probably escaping the rest of us.
You know the rational men and women on the street.


Oh no. I don't rationalize having my own personalized interests, goals, and challenges. I pursue them daily, hour by hour, day by day.
Terribly selfish I know. are you going to stand there for a long time holding a cross, a pitchfork and read from your Bible?

Except for picking up a lot of pointless rudeness, I have no idea what you are saying.

 

[Caladan]

Except for picking up a lot of pointless rudeness, I have no idea what you are saying.

Good. because we are definitely on different terms. as I have no idea what you've said all this time.

 

[Frank Merton]

Good. because we are definitely on different terms. as I have no idea what you've said all this time.

That's interesting. May I ask then why you responded in such a patronizing way? It looked to me you were trying to start a fight. If now you admit you didn't even understand me, why didn't you say so and give me a chance to maybe explain?

 

[Caladan]

That's interesting. May I ask then why you responded in such a patronizing way? It looked to me you were trying to start a fight. If now you admit you didn't even understand me, why didn't you say so and give me a chance to maybe explain?

Perhaps its time to take a good look at yourself.
here is one of your previous exchanges with me:

Too grandiose for me; I like my moral goods to be more personal. Changing the economy would be far too prone to the law of unintended consequences.

This strikes me as an attempt to rationalize selfishness.

As for not saying we are on different terms. again. its time to read the posts members pose to you in a discussion. because I have implied we believe differently several times.
and still I get a preaching. on a Religious Education Forum.

 

[Frank Merton]

I told you honestly what I think. Now I ask you an honest question. I guess you are not in the mood to reply in like terms.

I begin to think that there is a selection effect on boards like this, tending to drive away people who want intelligent discussion, so that in time all you have left are a group of egoistic dogmatists.

 

[Caladan]

I told you honestly what I think. Now I ask you an honest question. I guess you are not in the mood to reply in like terms.

I begin to think that there is a selection effect on boards like this, tending to drive away people who want intelligent discussion, so that in time all you have left are a group of egoistic dogmatists.

Telling me that I am selfish because I have my own distinct beliefs or heavens forbid personality. is no sign of intelligent discussion. it is a sermon. it gets old. and it belongs on religious forums. not on a Religious Education Forum. such as this.
If you are looking to give religious sermons to petty sinners. I am sure there are plenty of evangelical platforms who would love to give you a stage.

 

[iholdit]

Take the size of the earth, now thats the galaxy (there are trillions of galaxies) now take one pixel from your screen. God put man and the tree and the snake all in that pixel, instead of iono, the moon.

If you saw on the news some person's kid overdosed on herion and died, then you found out the parent locked the kids in a, mind you massive, room with two stashes of herion, you wouldn't be like "dumb *** killed his kids"

No way its the kids fault! Riiiiight

Adam and eve were not "kids" to start with. The snake had free will and the 2 trees are are in an area the size of multiple present day countries in the middle east. This may seem like a giant room in comparison to the universe but have you touched every tree in your country? Also keep in mind adam and eve didnt have cars or even mountain bikes etc. They walked these distances which are huge.

Are you and have you locked your 13 year old in a room since the time they were born until the time they die just so there was no chance they would ever encounter a liar or come across heroin(This is what you are claiming the creator should have done). If you have done this then what is the point of your 13 year olds life, being locked in a room?

My guess is you allow your 13 year old to play outside and maybe go to school, where the 13 year old will encounter liars and heroin and numerous other dangers. You prepare your 13 year old by giving them the information about liars and heroin and dont play in the street etc. When your 13 year old is an adult they will decide for themselves if they do heroin etc. and you can not be blamed if they choose that because you informed them of the consequences etc.

 

[iholdit]

If the bible isn't an accurate account why use it? You are forced to assume what happened.

God placed the snake in the garden. Since we've established the whole story isn't in the Bib: I'll school you. There was an arrangement in the green room before the curtains went up for the play, God told the snake to convince Eve/Adam to eat of the tree. God and satan made a deal laid the ground rules for the game and it began. It was god's will for god to damn mankind. it was the plan all along. God was all powerful, he didn't need to put magical death trees and decietful snakes in the garden, god did it with an agenda.

As for the kid thing, yeah I would feel responsible, and I would hold you responsible if you raised your kid so ****tily that without some god-given mental disorder he killed a bunch of people. If you look at the childhoods of serial killers 95% of them are ****** up.

Your argument doesnt make any sense. If there was some conspiracy between the creator and the snake to damn man, then why does the snake get punished as well?

It comes down to free will. Without free will you are just a puppet. In order for you to have free will you must have choices. Being locked in a room without any choice makes you a prisoner. The creator did not lock adam and eve in anywhere, instead the creator gave them freedom. You wanted the creator to lock adam and eve in a room without giving them a choice. If the creator did what you want that would be a sick, demented creator. I seriously hope you do not lock your children in a room for their whole life.

The bible is not going to give you every single detail just like no historical account will give you every detail. For example the bible doesnt mention adam or eve deficating or urinating so would it be logical to say adam and eve never did this, or is it logical to say if the bible wrote about every time adam and eve did this and every other detail of their lives the bible would be insanely long and nobody would get passed reading genesis.

As for serial killers many of them had normal childhoods. Even if we consider your estimate there is still 5% of serial killers who had normal childhoods and no mental disorders. What you are not understanding is that there are snipers in the military who have killed more people in one month than most serial killers have killed in their whole lives. Both being a sniper and being a serial killer are choices these people make regardless of their childhood or mental issues.

 

[Frank Merton]

Telling me that I am selfish because I have my own distinct beliefs or heavens forbid personality. is no sign of intelligent discussion. it is a sermon. it gets old. and it belongs on religious forums. not on a Religious Education Forum. such as this.
If you are looking to give religious sermons to petty sinners. I am sure there are plenty of evangelical platforms who would love to give you a stage.

You are now putting words in my mouth. I do badly enough with my own words, so when others try to do it for me it is really awful.

For example, I did not say you were selfish. I said your paragraph sounded to to me like a rationalization for selfishness. I fully expected you to explain to me why not, but, instead, you decide to take offense. Such a reaction leads objective people to think maybe one hit a sore spot.

I don't give sermons; I never went to divinity school so don't know how. In fact I never even went to church until my brother got married. So I think not only are you putting words in my mouth, but you are also jumping to totally unjustified conclusions.

 

[AntEmpire]

Oh come on. have you walked outside? on the streets? having a drink at the pub? even the cinema?
On occasion, there are ******** around us. some of us shrug it off for the most part. other take it as another Spanish Inquisition.

So you're fine with being a douche, good to know the staff here is so lovely

 

[AntEmpire]

Adam and eve were not "kids" to start with. The snake had free will and the 2 trees are are in an area the size of multiple present day countries in the middle east. This may seem like a giant room in comparison to the universe but have you touched every tree in your country? Also keep in mind adam and eve didnt have cars or even mountain bikes etc. They walked these distances which are huge.

Are you and have you locked your 13 year old in a room since the time they were born until the time they die just so there was no chance they would ever encounter a liar or come across heroin(This is what you are claiming the creator should have done). If you have done this then what is the point of your 13 year olds life, being locked in a room?

My guess is you allow your 13 year old to play outside and maybe go to school, where the 13 year old will encounter liars and heroin and numerous other dangers. You prepare your 13 year old by giving them the information about liars and heroin and dont play in the street etc. When your 13 year old is an adult they will decide for themselves if they do heroin etc. and you can not be blamed if they choose that because you informed them of the consequences etc.

They were created as adults, so they didn't have a childhood, without going through a childhood is one an adult? Ok so their magic adults without parents.

Obviously god showed adam and eve where the trees were, if god hadn't done this with a purpose, the two of them would still be in there without finding the tree.

God put a decietful snake in the garden, either you think god is dumb, or god did this while knowing what would happen. If god made an agreement with the snake and appeared to punish it, man wouldn't see any reward the snake would be getting (such as ruling the underworld without any interference from god).

Distance in the garden does not matter, man had nothing to do, whether it took the two of them a few days or a few thousand years to run into the tree and the snake at the same time it was bound to happen, your god isn't dumb he knew this would happen. It was his will for man to be damned, otherwise this terrarium would be boring for him to watch.

 

[AntEmpire]

Your argument doesnt make any sense. If there was some conspiracy between the creator and the snake to damn man, then why does the snake get punished as well?

It comes down to free will. Without free will you are just a puppet. In order for you to have free will you must have choices. Being locked in a room without any choice makes you a prisoner. The creator did not lock adam and eve in anywhere, instead the creator gave them freedom. You wanted the creator to lock adam and eve in a room without giving them a choice. If the creator did what you want that would be a sick, demented creator. I seriously hope you do not lock your children in a room for their whole life.

The bible is not going to give you every single detail just like no historical account will give you every detail. For example the bible doesnt mention adam or eve deficating or urinating so would it be logical to say adam and eve never did this, or is it logical to say if the bible wrote about every time adam and eve did this and every other detail of their lives the bible would be insanely long and nobody would get passed reading genesis.

As for serial killers many of them had normal childhoods. Even if we consider your estimate there is still 5% of serial killers who had normal childhoods and no mental disorders. What you are not understanding is that there are snipers in the military who have killed more people in one month than most serial killers have killed in their whole lives. Both being a sniper and being a serial killer are choices these people make regardless of their childhood or mental issues.

The snake appeared to get punished. Lose legs, gain an kingdom and be the third most powerful being in existence? I think the snake would've gone for that.

Its comes down to free will without the ability to mess up everything on earth is still free will. God doesn't give each of us a tree to not eat from, do we not have free will? God could've not made the tree and man would still have as much free will as you and i do. If you god needs there to be a negative he must be some kind of punishment freak who gets off from testing his little creations. When I have a pet cat or mouse I don't feel the need to test them and punish them.

Well yes, the bible isn't going to give every single needed detail. It was made in a way that interpretation is valid, if it gave all the details mankind wouldn't have a say in what the stories ment. If it explained itself fully people would more easily be able to disagree, but the men who desired to use it for power wouldn't allow that.

Snipers =/= serial killers. Serial killers work for their own adgenda, snipers work for the military/government.

 

[Caladan]

Often since I've moved to the 'developed' world a few short months ago. I've been dumbfounded by how is it possible that so many of you are depressed into oblivion.
You have no wars in your continents. hardly any terror. you boast of progress.
so really. what is it?
are you people chronically searching for ways to suffer and torment yourselves?
Ever since I've moved to the UK. I've discovered nothing but endless amount of ridiculously outstanding things to keep myself busy with. who the hell has time for being depressed?

 

[iholdit]

They were created as adults, so they didn't have a childhood, without going through a childhood is one an adult? Ok so their magic adults without parents.

Obviously god showed adam and eve where the trees were, if god hadn't done this with a purpose, the two of them would still be in there without finding the tree.

God put a decietful snake in the garden, either you think god is dumb, or god did this while knowing what would happen. If god made an agreement with the snake and appeared to punish it, man wouldn't see any reward the snake would be getting (such as ruling the underworld without any interference from god).

Distance in the garden does not matter, man had nothing to do, whether it took the two of them a few days or a few thousand years to run into the tree and the snake at the same time it was bound to happen, your god isn't dumb he knew this would happen. It was his will for man to be damned, otherwise this terrarium would be boring for him to watch.

You are making your own assumptions. How do you know if adam was made as an adult and didnt experience any form of a childhood? How do you know how long of a time period existed between adams creation and the eating from the tree incident? Adam and eve could have existed for a hundred years or more giving them ample experience that would be aquired through childhood and adulthood.
Is a snake the ruler of the underworld? The snake was punished and your argument was this was all some big scheme to make it just appear like the snake was punished, which again doesnt make any sense.

As i mentioned in several posts in this thread including several of my posts to you. You can not have free will if you are forced to make choices whether they are good or bad. So if the creator didnt give adam and eve the choice to do something bad then they wouldnt have free will. Adam and eve were not forced to eat from the tree, or again, they would not have free will. The snake also had free will and both adam,eve and the snake suffered the consequences of doing something bad. If you warn your 13 year old not to play in traffic and as an adult they play in traffic and get hit by a car , that was their free will to choose that. But if you lock your 13 year old in a room and never let them out, and tell them not to play in traffic. Then your 13 year old will never have free will to disobey you and so they will just be your prisoner.

This just seems like anger on your part. If the creator gave us no choice to disobey, then you would be calling the creator an evil puppetmaster or a prison guard for taking our freedom away. Because we were given freedom you call the creator evil for giving us the freedom to choose to do bad things(if we couldnt choose bad things we wouldnt have freedom). Its a no win situation because you would complain in either situation.

 

[iholdit]

The snake appeared to get punished. Lose legs, gain an kingdom and be the third most powerful being in existence? I think the snake would've gone for that.

Its comes down to free will without the ability to mess up everything on earth is still free will. God doesn't give each of us a tree to not eat from, do we not have free will? God could've not made the tree and man would still have as much free will as you and i do. If you god needs there to be a negative he must be some kind of punishment freak who gets off from testing his little creations. When I have a pet cat or mouse I don't feel the need to test them and punish them.

Well yes, the bible isn't going to give every single needed detail. It was made in a way that interpretation is valid, if it gave all the details mankind wouldn't have a say in what the stories ment. If it explained itself fully people would more easily be able to disagree, but the men who desired to use it for power wouldn't allow that.

Snipers =/= serial killers. Serial killers work for their own adgenda, snipers work for the military/government.

Snakes are the 3rd most powerful beings in existence? You are making some huge assumptions here.

We do have our own free will and although we dont have a specific 2 trees not to touch, the concept is the same. What adam and eve did effects us the same way what you do has an effect on other people. If you smoked before your 13 year old was born then you could have passed down some disease etc. epigenetically to your child. If you smoked ever you could have caused someone else to have inhaled that smoke and they could get a disease from that etc. Just about everything you or i do has an impact on the whole world. So our free will is basically the same free will as adam and eve had.

I dont think men who wanted to use the bible for power, decided to edit out every time adam urinated. It makes more sense to say what happened in the bible was edited to keep it from being millions of pages or more long.

Sniper= serial killers in terms of choice, which was my point. If a sniper chooses to join the military and become a sniper they are choosing to kill people, whether its their own agenda or someone elses agenda its still choosing to kill people.

 

[nicolelord2]

actually my brother is also mentally abnormal, we did lot of medications and all things but not effect.

 

[PolyHedral]

This just seems like anger on your part. If the creator gave us no choice to disobey, then you would be calling the creator an evil puppetmaster or a prison guard for taking our freedom away.

No, he wouldn't. No free will, remember?

Because we were given freedom you call the creator evil for giving us the freedom to choose to do bad things(if we couldnt choose bad things we wouldnt have freedom). Its a no win situation because you would complain in either situation.

Derren Brown, the metalist, successfully convinced 3 members of the public to rob a (staged) armored van. The reason this is relevant is because the catch behind it destroys the concept of "free will": Derren never mentioned banks or armored in the days leading up to the event. He does not give any order or ask any question about the van itself, in any form. At the time, he does not even suggest anything about thievery. The people involved did not realise they'd be influenced until Derren and his camera crew showed up and chased after they had done it.

If you can be influenced to make choices you "normally" wouldn't, without realizing it, how can you possibly be said to have free will?

 

[waitasec]

Often since I've moved to the 'developed' world a few short months ago. I've been dumbfounded by how is it possible that so many of you are depressed into oblivion.
You have no wars in your continents. hardly any terror. you boast of progress.
so really. what is it?
are you people chronically searching for ways to suffer and torment yourselves?
Ever since I've moved to the UK. I've discovered nothing but endless amount of ridiculously outstanding things to keep myself busy with. who the hell has time for being depressed?

some people are too bored with themselves and are unaware of the sky above...

 

[Commoner]

If you can be influenced to make choices you "normally" wouldn't, without realizing it, how can you possibly be said to have free will?

That's absurd... Not only do you have to make a pretty extensive generalization from a single instance when someone's being influenced to do something to "there is no free will", you also have to assume they did not act in accordance with their will. You know how many people Derren failed to convince?

That's very close to saying that, if you explain to someone why spiders aren't dangerous thus ridding them of a lifelong fear and enabling them to touch a spider, you've taken away their free will - because without your influence they never would have done it. Which - you might be right about, but that's certainly not sufficient demonstration that we lack free will anymore than any other random thing you might come up with - like, when it's hot, we prefer cold drinks, so how can we be said to have free will when normally we wouldn't enjoy drinking something that cold.