God and Depression

[iholdit]

No, they wouldn't. The concept of lying requires the concept of deceit, which is generally classified as "evil." Without knowledge of good and evil, you don't have the concept of lying.

Adam and eve did understand the concept of evil ,deceit and lying and everything else that comes with it. What they didnt have was the knowledge(experience) of evil etc.

 

[waitasec]

Death was explained thoroughly the same way you would explain it to someone but in great detail.

They chose to eat the fruit because eve was deceived into believeing it wouldnt cause death. If i tell you if you eat a plant you will die and someone else says you wont die that plant will give you super powers. You then have a choice to make to you believe me or the other person. That is free will.

Would it be fair if you ate the plant i told you was poisonous and you died? Wasnt that your decision? I dont see how fairness plays into this.

It was the fathers intention for man to live without ever having anything bad happening to them. But in order for man to not be puppets they were given free will. They were fully informed of what the consequences were. I dont see how any blame could be put on me for you eating a poisonous plant that i warned you was poisonous and i warned what would happen if you ate it, but you chose to eat it anyway.

well it's because i know what poison means...
adam and eve were ignorant and innocent, were they not?
but lets toss that aside for a second
what if that were indeed the case what about free will? did god intend for adam and eve to have free will?

 

[iholdit]

well it's because i know what poison means...
adam and eve were ignorant and innocent, were they not?
but lets toss that aside for a second
what if that were indeed the case what about free will? did god intend for adam and eve to have free will?

Innocent? Yes. Ignorant? They were no more ignorant than you or i are. They understood the concepts of things as i have already mentioned. You would have to define what you believe they were ignorant about, but they were not ignorant in general.

They were given free will. Free will is the freedom to choose but that doesnt mean the father wanted or intended for adam and eve to make bad choices. But without the option of making bad choices there is no free will.

 

[waitasec]

Innocent? Yes. Ignorant? They were no more ignorant than you or i are. They understood the concepts of things as i have already mentioned. You would have to define what you believe they were ignorant about, but they were not ignorant in general.

look up the word ignorant...
i am not implying stupid...there is a huge difference.

They were given free will. Free will is the freedom to choose but that doesnt mean the father wanted or intended for adam and eve to make bad choices. But without the option of making bad choices there is no free will.

but it was their choice to make. looks like god wanted to control their actions by manipulating them with an ultimatum

 

[iholdit]

look up the word ignorant...
i am not implying stupid...there is a huge difference.



but it was their choice to make. looks like god wanted to control their actions by manipulating them with an ultimatum

You didnt mention what you believe they were ignorant about.

Its like a parent. You would want your children to make the best decisions. So if you tell your children dont do heroin because it will cause health problems and you could die etc. Is that an ultimatum? No, its telling them the consequences of doing heroin. The father told adam and eve the consequences of eating from the banned trees. It was adam and eve who decided to eat from the trees anyway even though they knew the consequences.

 

[Orias]

No, you still dont seem to understand. Lets say i explained to you the concept of time travel in detail. Then i said if you eat from this tree you will go back in time. Would you not understand the consequences of eating from the tree? Would you not have a detailed understanding of what is going to happen? What you wouldnt have is the experience of what it feels like.

You are correct that one persons wrong may be another persons right. We are talking about what the father says is good and evil, that is what adam and eve knew after eating from the tree.

This is your opinion regarding those that believe in scripture. Perhaps those who share your opinion are being narrow minded and self deceitful because of what they choose to see. Mostly when i find people criticise scripture they are not well versed in it. Perhaps you are well versed in scripture, but considering we are talking about the 2nd and 3rd chapter of the first book of the bible or torah, my guess would be you havent spent enough time studying scripture to be in a position to criticise those who have.

Let's make one thing clear here, to understand the consequences of an action, one must act.

I understand very well, and your points are getting rather droll and redundant.

Anyone can critisize scripture, maybe that's why there is over 800 branches of Christianity that all seem to bicker and argue about scripture and same faith. I've been here long enough to understand what constructive criticism is, and how to construct an argument from scripture. I also realize that the big three religions (Judaism, Christianity and Muslim), all posses the same founding father, and yet they still kill each other over the interpretation of the scripture and not the belief.

Plain and simple, the story and the point you tried arguing is irrelevant to this new argument you are trying to make.

Scripture is irrelevant to the point that you tried making that, Adam and Eve knew of the consequences before eating from the Tree, and that is not possible.

How could they know, or truly understand what they are doing, if they did not have the knowledge of what it was that they were doing?

You say God gave them the knowledge, but they didn't have the ability to process it, and determine it, which makes it pretty fallacious to state that they knew the consequences of anything before eating from the tree of knowledge.

It's easy to say one does not understand, as if your view point was a unique one that I've never heard before. It is one that I understand, it is also one that I disagree with, and is quite evidently not logically possible.

 

[iholdit]

Let's make one thing clear here, to understand the consequences of an action, one must act.

I understand very well, and your points are getting rather droll and redundant.

Anyone can critisize scripture, maybe that's why there is over 800 branches of Christianity that all seem to bicker and argue about scripture and same faith. I've been here long enough to understand what constructive criticism is, and how to construct an argument from scripture. I also realize that the big three religions (Judaism, Christianity and Muslim), all posses the same founding father, and yet they still kill each other over the interpretation of the scripture and not the belief.

Plain and simple, the story and the point you tried arguing is irrelevant to this new argument you are trying to make.

Scripture is irrelevant to the point that you tried making that, Adam and Eve knew of the consequences before eating from the Tree, and that is not possible.

How could they know, or truly understand what they are doing, if they did not have the knowledge of what it was that they were doing?

You say God gave them the knowledge, but they didn't have the ability to process it, and determine it, which makes it pretty fallacious to state that they knew the consequences of anything before eating from the tree of knowledge.

It's easy to say one does not understand, as if your view point was a unique one that I've never heard before. It is one that I understand, it is also one that I disagree with, and is quite evidently not logically possible.

Nope, you still dont get it and you misquoted me on top of it. I never said adam and eve were given knowledge but didnt have the ability to process it, this is you making things up now.

Once again there is a difference between understanding the consequences and knowing the consequences. You can understand that if you shoot up drugs you can get aids and you can understand what aids is, but you wont know what having aids is like until you experience it.

You obviously dont understand what i am saying and didnt understand what anyone who said it to you before was saying, or you would realize it is perfectly logical.

 

[Orias]

I dont think the concept of death is hard to understand. Its alot easier to understand the concept of death than it is the concept of time travel or any of your examples. Adam and eve understood what they were getting into.

How can I debate with somone if they can't remember what they said a few posts ago?

Nope, you still dont get it and you misquoted me on top of it. I never said adam and eve were given knowledge but didnt have the ability to process it, this is you making things up now.

How could I have possibly misquoted you?

I click, "quote", and it takes me to this screen.

On top of that, I never said that you said that they didn't have the ability to process this "God" given information, that is what I said.

You said, God gave them prior "knowledge" of the consequences if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, I simply stated that this was not possible for them to understand what they were getting into, if they did not have the knowledge to process perception.

Once again there is a difference between understanding the consequences and knowing the consequences. You can understand that if you shoot up drugs you can get aids and you can understand what aids is, but you wont know what having aids is like until you experience it.

Do you need the dictionary definition of "understand"? Knowledge is required.

Processing information is vital to our "understanding" of "knowledge", which again, makes this whole story a completely irrational one.

Do you think women still come from the ribs of men?

You obviously dont understand what i am saying and didnt understand what anyone who said it to you before was saying, or you would realize it is perfectly logical.

Lol at you.

I thought it would be rather a simple thing to understand that, Adam and Eve couldn't of possibly known anything before eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

 

[ellenjanuary]

If you're looking for answers, you are trying to mix a screwdriver using screws. I'm sure it would not take much effort to link some fat-cat or too, to wholesome Christian-do-goodery, to an oversaturated market of believers, fulfilling the modern Christian sacrament of feeding the rich...

But evolution and depression, sure. There is no standard without deviation, and I have witnessed one presentation suggesting that without the occasional lunatic, we wouldn't be much further along than the stone age. I don't know what purpose I serve, but I suppose even a blind watchmaker crafts a few nuts, that are just nuts.

 

[iholdit]

How can I debate with somone if they can't remember what they said a few posts ago?



How could I have possibly misquoted you?

I click, "quote", and it takes me to this screen.

On top of that, I never said that you said that they didn't have the ability to process this "God" given information, that is what I said.

You said, God gave them prior "knowledge" of the consequences if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, I simply stated that this was not possible for them to understand what they were getting into, if they did not have the knowledge to process perception.




Do you need the dictionary definition of "understand"? Knowledge is required.

Processing information is vital to our "understanding" of "knowledge", which again, makes this whole story a completely irrational one.

Do you think women still come from the ribs of men?





Lol at you.

I thought it would be rather a simple thing to understand that, Adam and Eve couldn't of possibly known anything before eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

LOL on you ,because you misqouted me again. You are not clicking the quote button you are typing in yourself what you claim i posted and i have not. You posted this "You said God gave them prior "knowledge" of the consequences if the ate from the Tree of Knowledge". That is not my quote so like i said you are misquoting me. Do you need a dictionary definition of misquote?

Just so you understand it wasnt the tree of knowledge that adam and eve ate from, it was the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

There are multiple definitions of the word "understand" but regardless the word you should be focusing on is "concept". Adam and eve would have understood the concept of good and evil. The word "knowledge" here is better translated as "a knowing that comes from experience".

As i explained already, its one thing to understand the concept of time travel but without actually having experienced time travel you can not have "a knowing that comes from experience" of time travel.

I ll try to further explain what is meant by "knowledge" in the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I can show you a picture of a strawberry, i can tell you it tastes sweet etc. this is me explaining the concept of a strawberry. When you actually see the strawberry in person you will also know exactly how it smells and exactly how it tastes etc. This "knowledge" came from "experience". Hopefully this clears it up for you.

 

[Orias]

LOL on you ,because you misqouted me again. You are not clicking the quote button you are typing in yourself what you claim i posted and i have not. You posted this "You said God gave them prior "knowledge" of the consequences if the ate from the Tree of Knowledge". That is not my quote so like i said you are misquoting me. Do you need a dictionary definition of misquote?

Not one for reading forum rules are you?

Like it or not, I'm using what you say to me, against you.

Just so you understand it wasnt the tree of knowledge that adam and eve ate from, it was the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I must be misunderstanding what knowledge means then, I must also be misunderstanding the subjective stance that "good" and "evil" coexist in the context that "knowledge" is "good" or "evil". Which makes their understanding of this proposition considerably "evil" already.

There are multiple definitions of the word "understand" but regardless the word you should be focusing on is "concept". Adam and eve would have understood the concept of good and evil. The word "knowledge" here is better translated as "a knowing that comes from experience".

Thanks for proving my point.

As i explained already, its one thing to understand the concept of time travel but without actually having experienced time travel you can not have "a knowing that comes from experience" of time travel.

Again, thanks for proving my point.

I ll try to further explain what is meant by "knowledge" in the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I can show you a picture of a strawberry, i can tell you it tastes sweet etc. this is me explaining the concept of a strawberry. When you actually see the strawberry in person you will also know exactly how it smells and exactly how it tastes etc. This "knowledge" came from "experience". Hopefully this clears it up for you.

You do realize that in your attempt to make it seem like I was changing your posts, you actually came into agreeance with me?

Let me restate the premise of my argument

I thought it would be rather a simple thing to understand that, Adam and Eve couldn't of possibly known anything before eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

Now why you are trying to change the origin of the argument from, Adam and Eve "knowing" or "understanding" what they were getting into, into Adam and Eve experiencing this knowledge beats me.

You can have the last post if it makes you feel like a winner, this argument is stupid, and the basis of it's foundation seems to have been lost.

 

[iholdit]

Not one for reading forum rules are you?

Like it or not, I'm using what you say to me, against you.



I must be misunderstanding what knowledge means then, I must also be misunderstanding the subjective stance that "good" and "evil" coexist in the context that "knowledge" is "good" or "evil". Which makes their understanding of this proposition considerably "evil" already.



Thanks for proving my point.



Again, thanks for proving my point.



You do realize that in your attempt to make it seem like I was changing your posts, you actually came into agreeance with me?

Let me restate the premise of my argument



Now why you are trying to change the origin of the argument from, Adam and Eve "knowing" or "understanding" what they were getting into, into Adam and Eve experiencing this knowledge beats me.

You can have the last post if it makes you feel like a winner, this argument is stupid, and the basis of it's foundation seems to have been lost.

You werent using my own argument against me you changed my words in order to use say i said something i didnt.

I have explained and have been using the term "knowledge" to mean "a knowledge that comes from experience". I have explained and have been using the term "understand the concept" and after numerous posts of writing this have shortened to "understand" to mean understanding the subject and the details of the subject, without having experienced it.

You changed my quote and used "knowledge" instead of "understand". I have explained to you several times how i am using these terms. So it would either be accidental, dishonest or you misunderstanding. I ll call it accidental on your part because i dont know you well enough to call you dishonest and the fact you are still responding makes it so that you are at least trying to understand.

Just to clarify adam and eve didnt have the "knowing that comes from experience" of good and evil until they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but they did understand the concept of good and evil.

Lets say you have never seen a airplane before someone explains to you what an airplane looks like and how an airplane works etc. You will have an idea of how an airplane works.

Lets say they go even further and they explain in detail how every part in an airplane works and how to operate an airplane etc. Then you will understand the concept of exactly what causes an airplane to fly and how it works and how to operate it and how to fix it and build it etc.

Lets say i put you in simulators where you repair, build and fly the plane etc. Now you understand the concept of just about everything about a plane, except you dont know(a knowledge that comes from experience) any of this in real life.

There is a big difference between flying a plane in a simulator and flying a plane for real, you arent hundreds of feet above ground in a simulator and you cant crash to your death in a simulator.

Adam and eve understood the concept of everything about good, evil, life and death. What they didnt know(a knowledge that comes from experience) was the experience(or recognizing the experience) of doing something good or bad or experiencing life or death.

If you still dont understand, then i thank you for at least trying to understand.

 

[nicolelord2]

I heard about, read about depression and depression in women, Are women especially vulnerable to depression?

 

[Thesavorofpan]

So...for amusement? Whose? His or ours?

...Maybe his...or ours. We do like to make movies and write books about people who suffer from it.

 

[waitasec]

You didnt mention what you believe they were ignorant about.

they were ignorant about good and evil

Its like a parent. You would want your children to make the best decisions. So if you tell your children dont do heroin because it will cause health problems and you could die etc. Is that an ultimatum? No, its telling them the consequences of doing heroin. The father told adam and eve the consequences of eating from the banned trees. It was adam and eve who decided to eat from the trees anyway even though they knew the consequences.

in other words.. the consequence of using your free will is death...
they were set up to fail for being ignorant of what they were being held accountable for not knowing good and evil...

why call it the tree of knowledge of good and evil if they already understood what it meant? it's not logical...it's metaphorical.

 

[iholdit]

they were ignorant about good and evil



in other words.. the consequence of using your free will is death...
they were set up to fail for being ignorant of what they were being held accountable for not knowing good and evil...

why call it the tree of knowledge of good and evil if they already understood what it meant? it's not logical...it's metaphorical.

As i have already explained several times in this thread, adam and eve were not ignorant of good and evil. The word knowledge here is talking about "knowing" i can explain what happens when you stick your hand in fire and you can understand the concept of being burned but you will not "know" what being burned feels like.

The father is like a good parent who tells their children not to play on the highway or they will get hit by a car and get hurt or die etc. and continues to tell them this until they are adults. Yet the child grows up into a adult and still has the free will to go play on the highway. The father gave warning of the consequences as a good father would yet adam and eve didnt listen and suffered the consequences.

The consequence of using your free will is not death. You can use your free will not to murder someone or you can use your free will to murder someone. You use your free will with just about everything you do. The consequence of using your free will not to listen to the father who is trying to keep you from death is death. Just like the consequence of using your free will not to listen to your parent who told you not to play on the highway will likely be injury or death.

 

[wincando]

You werent using my own argument against me you changed my words in order to use say i said something i didnt.

I have explained and have been using the term "knowledge" to mean "a knowledge that comes from experience". I have explained and have been using the term "understand the concept" and after numerous posts of writing this have shortened to "understand" to mean understanding the subject and the details of the subject, without having experienced it.

You changed my quote and used "knowledge" instead of "understand". I have explained to you several times how i am using these terms. So it would either be accidental, dishonest or you misunderstanding. I ll call it accidental on your part because i dont know you well enough to call you dishonest and the fact you are still responding makes it so that you are at least trying to understand.

Just to clarify adam and eve didnt have the "knowing that comes from experience" of good and evil until they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but they did understand the concept of good and evil.

Lets say you have never seen a airplane before someone explains to you what an airplane looks like and how an airplane works etc. You will have an idea of how an airplane works.

Lets say they go even further and they explain in detail how every part in an airplane works and how to operate an airplane etc. Then you will understand the concept of exactly what causes an airplane to fly and how it works and how to operate it and how to fix it and build it etc.

Lets say i put you in simulators where you repair, build and fly the plane etc. Now you understand the concept of just about everything about a plane, except you dont know(a knowledge that comes from experience) any of this in real life.

There is a big difference between flying a plane in a simulator and flying a plane for real, you arent hundreds of feet above ground in a simulator and you cant crash to your death in a simulator.

Adam and eve understood the concept of everything about good, evil, life and death. What they didnt know(a knowledge that comes from experience) was the experience(or recognizing the experience) of doing something good or bad or experiencing life or death.

If you still dont understand, then i thank you for at least trying to understand.

life. you start off being understanding and end up miles apart. why? Because u dont nderstand the basic denominator. we are all the same. get along booooring. For who? right in front of your faces but you just dont see.

 

[AntEmpire]

I think it is foolish to think that man had no understanding of good and evil before sin. They knew what was right and wrong what was learned was the penalty of sin in their decision to do wrong.

You're fine with a god who would put you in a test where you had never experienced the test. Lets take you, and you're in this place now here is something you've heard of, rocket science (if you are a rocket scientist replace with nuclear science, herbology, witchcraft something you don't know but have heard of) now you're life and the lives of everyone who will ever exist depends on you being tested on something you don't know jack about. And there is no google, or books, or people to ask to save you.

 

[AntEmpire]

You didnt mention what you believe they were ignorant about.

Its like a parent. You would want your children to make the best decisions. So if you tell your children dont do heroin because it will cause health problems and you could die etc. Is that an ultimatum? No, its telling them the consequences of doing heroin. The father told adam and eve the consequences of eating from the banned trees. It was adam and eve who decided to eat from the trees anyway even though they knew the consequences.

Difference being if your or my kid did herion we wouldn't throw a tantrum and damn an entire race of beings. Or if we did, we would get over it unless we were real stuborn children who wouldn't admit our mistakes. (Both locking our kid in a room filled with herion and then punishing him and a race of beings for it)

 

[AntEmpire]

Adam and eve did understand the concept of evil ,deceit and lying and everything else that comes with it. What they didnt have was the knowledge(experience) of evil etc.

bible passage where god explains lying, deceit to adam and eve?

Also god put a deceitful snake in the garden, do you know how big the **** universe is? He could've put it anywhere, (or not made the snake) god might not be able to lie himself (which would make him less powerful in the ablity than a 13 year old who can lie), but if he has a will to trick man into eating something he told them not to eat, god could use the backdoor and create a being for the specific purpose of tricking mankind.