God and Depression

[iholdit]

there was no death indicted in the scriptures...of course he didn't experience it first hand, he didn't experience it as an observer either.



right no animals just fruit...that's why i say, adam hadn't witnessed death as an observer...

Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, ?You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.?





not that sticking your hand in a fire is bad, it hurts...
once you stick your hand in the fire will you know what being burned feels like

you can UNDERSTAND what the word delicious means but not
until you eat this tasty pastry will you KNOW what delicious is. god held them accountable for something they were not privy to. that is why this story shouldn't be taken literally, that's all.

You can understand concepts without ever observing them either. Do you understand the concept of time travel? Have you ever observed time travel?

Death was explained to adam and eve. They understood the concept and they did not have to witness death to understand the concept of death. The same way you dont have to witness time travel to understand the concept either.

 

[PolyHedral]

You can understand concepts without ever observing them either. Do you understand the concept of time travel? Have you ever observed time travel?

What does ultraviolet look like? Gamma radiation? Radio? It doesn't matter if I told you that ultraviolet looks bluer-than-blue, you still don't have any experience you can compare it to.

 

[iholdit]

What does ultraviolet look like? Gamma radiation? Radio? It doesn't matter if I told you that ultraviolet looks bluer-than-blue, you still don't have any experience you can compare it to.

Im not sure what this has to do with what i am saying. All of your examples are proving my point. You can understand what all of those concepts are but you cant know any of them through your normal 5 senses.

 

[PolyHedral]

Im not sure what this has to do with what i am saying. All of your examples are proving my point. You can understand what all of those concepts are but you cant know any of them through your normal 5 senses.

You can intellectually understand them, but it's very hard to imagine what they actually feel like. It is similarly difficult to imagine what death entails without experiencing it. (or the death of another)

 

[Orias]

Do you associate pain with being good then?

I associate pain with doing something which is painful, which means, I wouldn't put myself in a scenario where I knew pain would be involved, unless it was necessary of course.

I don't associate anything with "good" or "evil", I use literal associatation to learn from everything.

I guess you could say it's no different than a dog.

What if the bad thing caused you to die, would you learn from it then?

That should be self evident, what would it matter, your dead.

I dont see how your statement makes adam and eve b.s.

How did they gain knowledge of "good" and "evil" or "good" and "bad" if they hadn't already eaten the fruit?

It's a hypocritical story for self deceitful people.

 

[waitasec]

You can understand concepts without ever observing them either. Do you understand the concept of time travel? Have you ever observed time travel?

Death was explained to adam and eve. They understood the concept and they did not have to witness death to understand the concept of death. The same way you dont have to witness time travel to understand the concept either.

how was death explained exactly?

if death was explained why would they choose to go down that path?


lets just say, ok they knew somehow what death meant...
would it be fair to say that god punished adam and eve for using their free will?

everything else was a matter of freedom...but this; a choice.
it would seem it was god's intention for man to be without free will simply for the fact of what the "punishment" was for adam and eve.

 

[astarath]

I think it is foolish to think that man had no understanding of good and evil before sin. They knew what was right and wrong what was learned was the penalty of sin in their decision to do wrong.

 

[waitasec]

I think it is foolish to think that man had no understanding of good and evil before sin. They knew what was right and wrong what was learned was the penalty of sin in their decision to do wrong.

well it was the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.
that is why my argument for taking this story literally seems to be a real big undertaking rather than approaching it metaphorically.

 

[iholdit]

You can intellectually understand them, but it's very hard to imagine what they actually feel like. It is similarly difficult to imagine what death entails without experiencing it. (or the death of another)

I dont think the concept of death is hard to understand. Its alot easier to understand the concept of death than it is the concept of time travel or any of your examples. Adam and eve understood what they were getting into.

 

[Orias]

I dont think the concept of death is hard to understand. Its alot easier to understand the concept of death than it is the concept of time travel or any of your examples. Adam and eve understood what they were getting into.

It's alot easier to understand something that is the end?

I'm sorry I find that hard to agree with, if they really knew what they were getting into then they wouldn't of done it in the first place.

Just like Waitasec said, they did eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

[iholdit]

I associate pain with doing something which is painful, which means, I wouldn't put myself in a scenario where I knew pain would be involved, unless it was necessary of course.

I don't associate anything with "good" or "evil", I use literal associatation to learn from everything.

I guess you could say it's no different than a dog.



That should be self evident, what would it matter, your dead.




How did they gain knowledge of "good" and "evil" or "good" and "bad" if they hadn't already eaten the fruit?

It's a hypocritical story for self deceitful people.

The thing you are not understanding is that the punishment for eating the fruit was their death. You already admitted you can not learn from your own death. You also admitted you wouldnt put yourself in that situation because you understand the consequences.

There is a difference between understanding the concept of good and evil and knowing(experiencing) good and evil.

The fact that you dont understand the story doesnt make it hypocritical. Anyone saying it is hypocritical without understanding it is being self deceitful.

 

[Orias]

The thing you are not understanding is that the punishment for eating the fruit was their death. You already admitted you can not learn from your own death. You also admitted you wouldnt put yourself in that situation because you understand the consequences.

Oh shame, I do understand that very well, death is not an experience it is an end.

But what you don't understand is this, Adam and Eve at from the Tree of KNOWLEDGE, I don't see how they could understand what they were getting into, if they had no knowledge of what it could of potentially provided.

There is a difference between understanding the concept of good and evil and knowing(experiencing) good and evil.

No there isn't, they are frabrications from the human mind, subjectively they don't exist. Like you said, the concept of good and evil.

However, there is a great difference between understanding the concept of good and evil and knowing when you have wronged one person, for one wrong may be anothers right.

The fact that you dont understand the story doesnt make it hypocritical. Anyone saying it is hypocritical without understanding it is being self deceitful.

I disagree, people who follow one book tend to be most ignorantly narrow minded and self deceitful.

It's not because of the singular belief, it's because of what you chose to see.

I know I'm a hypocrite, I know I can be deceitful and self deceitful, but these plagues are only for my benefit.

It's a dull road for those who chose to see life as a gift, rather than a legacy.

For some people, it is easy to understand the dust that falls within the air, others tend to complicate and insue a more insidious and mystical act behind existence.

 

[iholdit]

how was death explained exactly?

if death was explained why would they choose to go down that path?


lets just say, ok they knew somehow what death meant...
would it be fair to say that god punished adam and eve for using their free will?

everything else was a matter of freedom...but this; a choice.
it would seem it was god's intention for man to be without free will simply for the fact of what the "punishment" was for adam and eve.

Death was explained thoroughly the same way you would explain it to someone but in great detail.

They chose to eat the fruit because eve was deceived into believeing it wouldnt cause death. If i tell you if you eat a plant you will die and someone else says you wont die that plant will give you super powers. You then have a choice to make to you believe me or the other person. That is free will.

Would it be fair if you ate the plant i told you was poisonous and you died? Wasnt that your decision? I dont see how fairness plays into this.

It was the fathers intention for man to live without ever having anything bad happening to them. But in order for man to not be puppets they were given free will. They were fully informed of what the consequences were. I dont see how any blame could be put on me for you eating a poisonous plant that i warned you was poisonous and i warned what would happen if you ate it, but you chose to eat it anyway.

 

[PolyHedral]

They were fully informed of what the consequences were.

The information might be there, but it's more or less explicitly stated that the ability to process it was not. It is impossible to non-arbitrarily decide between two contradictory statements that are equally likely to be true. And, in A&E's somewhat basic thinking, they are equally likely to be true, because the idea of the serpent lying comes under "good and evil."

 

[Orias]

The information might be there, but it's more or less explicitly stated that the ability to process it was not. It is impossible to non-arbitrarily decide between two contradictory statements that are equally likely to be true. And, in A&E's somewhat basic thinking, they are equally likely to be true, because the idea of the serpent lying comes under "good and evil."

Exactly, so this proposition of Adam and Eve is nonesense.

Not to mention the scary outcome of the genetics had it actually been.:run:

 

[iholdit]

Oh shame, I do understand that very well, death is not an experience it is an end.

But what you don't understand is this, Adam and Eve at from the Tree of KNOWLEDGE, I don't see how they could understand what they were getting into, if they had no knowledge of what it could of potentially provided.



No there isn't, they are frabrications from the human mind, subjectively they don't exist. Like you said, the concept of good and evil.

However, there is a great difference between understanding the concept of good and evil and knowing when you have wronged one person, for one wrong may be anothers right.




I disagree, people who follow one book tend to be most ignorantly narrow minded and self deceitful.

It's not because of the singular belief, it's because of what you chose to see.

I know I'm a hypocrite, I know I can be deceitful and self deceitful, but these plagues are only for my benefit.

It's a dull road for those who chose to see life as a gift, rather than a legacy.

For some people, it is easy to understand the dust that falls within the air, others tend to complicate and insue a more insidious and mystical act behind existence.

No, you still dont seem to understand. Lets say i explained to you the concept of time travel in detail. Then i said if you eat from this tree you will go back in time. Would you not understand the consequences of eating from the tree? Would you not have a detailed understanding of what is going to happen? What you wouldnt have is the experience of what it feels like.

You are correct that one persons wrong may be another persons right. We are talking about what the father says is good and evil, that is what adam and eve knew after eating from the tree.

This is your opinion regarding those that believe in scripture. Perhaps those who share your opinion are being narrow minded and self deceitful because of what they choose to see. Mostly when i find people criticise scripture they are not well versed in it. Perhaps you are well versed in scripture, but considering we are talking about the 2nd and 3rd chapter of the first book of the bible or torah, my guess would be you havent spent enough time studying scripture to be in a position to criticise those who have.

 

[PolyHedral]

I have a button.

If you push the button, the slithy toves will gyre and gimble in the wabe.
If you don't push the button, the mome will rath the outgrabe.

Do you want to push the button?

 

[iholdit]

The information might be there, but it's more or less explicitly stated that the ability to process it was not. It is impossible to non-arbitrarily decide between two contradictory statements that are equally likely to be true. And, in A&E's somewhat basic thinking, they are equally likely to be true, because the idea of the serpent lying comes under "good and evil."

How was the ability to process the information not there. Does it say adam and eve were stupid and that they didnt have the same reasoning ability or capacity to learn that modern humans do?

Adam and eve would have had to choose between 2 contradictory statements that is correct. However, they would have understood the concept of lying but they would have also reasoned that the god could be lying also. Just like numerous decisions that are made in life where the choices have contradictory statements behind them, we must decide what is true. This is free will.

If someone tells you heroin is good for you. You might say but people say its bad. Then that person might say if it is bad then why do so many people do it etc. In the end it is your choice who to believe. Some people will choose to believe doing heroin is bad and not do it and some people will choose to believe doing heroin is good and do it. This is free will.

 

[PolyHedral]

However, they would have understood the concept of lying but they would have also reasoned that the god could be lying also.

No, they wouldn't. The concept of lying requires the concept of deceit, which is generally classified as "evil." Without knowledge of good and evil, you don't have the concept of lying.

 

[iholdit]

I have a button.

If you push the button, the slithy toves will gyre and gimble in the wabe.
If you don't push the button, the mome will rath the outgrabe.

Do you want to push the button?

Explain what slithy toves and gyre etc. is.

Adam and eve were not uniformed. They understood what the possible consequences of the decision were and they understood what death was etc.

If you had a good life and i said eating this tree will either A. make your life better. or B. make you die, but you wont know which one will happen until you eat from the tree. You have been made fully aware of the details of the concept of better and dead. So which do you choose?