God and Depression

[waitasec]

What if i told you what electricuted is then is it my fault?
In scripture gen 2:16-17. The father tells adam that disobedience will kill him. In fact adam and eve must have been told several times about the consequences because in gen 3:3 we see there is even mention of not touching the tree which was not mentioned in gen 2:16-17. They were obviously told several times it was wrong and what the consequences were. The father did not set them up they chose it themselves knowing the consequences.

how was adam to know what death was? there is no scripture indicating the eating meat, just fruit....
they must have known it was wrong before eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil? how? this is irreconcilable. a contradiction.

 

[tumbleweed41]

There is no need to know evil the same way there is no need to stick your hand in fire to recognize it is bad. It was a bad decision on adam and eves part.

If everything was always good you would consider that normal. You may not label it as good because you have no bad experience to compare it to.

But it is better to live in an environment that is always good and never know evil than it is to experience evil and know the difference between good and evil.

At least that is my opinion. Would you want to experience evil or stick your hand in fire for that matter?

Then WHY did God purposefully put a tree in the garden that would harm man. What other purpose would this tree have had, except to introduce the concept of evil to mankind?

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Wouldn't he already know?

You are a clever clogs. :bow:

 

[iholdit]

how was adam to know what death was? there is no scripture indicating the eating meat, just fruit....
they must have known it was wrong before eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil? how? this is irreconcilable. a contradiction.

Adam wouldnt know what death was, the same way you dont know what death is because you never experienced death or at least you have no memory of experiencing death. You as well as adam understand/understood the concept of what death is. You dont have to experience(know) death to understand the concept.

Im not sure what you mean by meat. If you mean eating animals there is scripture that says what is food and what can be eaten(Gen 1:29,2:16-17). If you mean something else let me know.

They understood the concept of eating from the 2 banned trees was wrong. There is a difference between understanding a concept and experiencing(knowing) it. I gave the example of, you dont have to stick your hand in fire to understand the concept of that is bad, but you wont know it is bad until you experience it.

 

[iholdit]

Then WHY did God purposefully put a tree in the garden that would harm man. What other purpose would this tree have had, except to introduce the concept of evil to mankind?

If there was no banned trees in the garden then the only decisions adam and eve could make would be good decisions. This would make them puppets. If there is not even the slightest chance of them knowingly choosing something bad then they dont really have free will.

The father stacked the odds in adam and eves favor, they had hundreds of trees they could eat from and only 2 they couldnt. They had more chance to make good choices than they did bad choices. But they chose the bad choice anyway.

 

[tumbleweed41]

If there was no banned trees in the garden then the only decisions adam and eve could make would be good decisions. This would make them puppets. If there is not even the slightest chance of them knowingly choosing something bad then they dont really have free will.

The father stacked the odds in adam and eves favor, they had hundreds of trees they could eat from and only 2 they couldnt. They had more chance to make good choices than they did bad choices. But they chose the bad choice anyway.

Thus enabling them, as you mentioned earlier, to appreciate Good. Indicating that God intended for them to make that choice.
Would that be a fair assessment?

 

[iholdit]

Thus enabling them, as you mentioned earlier, to appreciate Good. Indicating that God intended for them to make that choice.
Would that be a fair assessment?

Lets say you have been able to walk your whole life and i say let me cut your legs off so you can see what its like not to walk. You dont have to experience having your legs cut off to know this is a bad idea. Its better to be able to walk than having your legs cut off, just so you can appreciate how good it was to be able to walk and know how bad it is now, not to be able to walk.

There is no point to experiencing bad. Its better to live a pain free life than it is to experience pain etc..

 

[tumbleweed41]

Thus enabling them, as you mentioned earlier, to appreciate Good. Indicating that God intended for them to make that choice.
Would that be a fair assessment?

Lets say you have been able to walk your whole life and i say let me cut your legs off so you can see what its like not to walk. You dont have to experience having your legs cut off to know this is a bad idea. Its better to be able to walk than having your legs cut off, just so you can appreciate how good it was to be able to walk and know how bad it is now, not to be able to walk.

There is no point to experiencing bad. Its better to live a pain free life than it is to experience pain etc..

Earlier, you said....

They only knew good before eating from the tree and because they only knew good they didnt know it was good because they had nothing to compare it to. Havent you ever heard that you dont know what you got until its gone? Well you dont know what good is until you know what bad is.
......
They were told what the concept of bad and good were. But there is a difference between hearing a concept and exeriencing it yourself(knowing it).

Are you retracting this?

 

[iholdit]

Earlier, you said....


Are you retracting this?

No, you are misunderstanding me. Adam and eve didnt appreciate good even though they were experiencing it because they had nothing to compare it to. But they understood the concept of good and bad.

Like i said in my last post its better not to appreciate being able to walk than it is to have your legs cut off and not be able to walk just so you appreciate walking.

Just because it takes losing something to appreciate doesnt mean you should lose it on purpose just so you can appreciate it.

 

[ninerbuff]

Adam wouldnt know what death was, the same way you dont know what death is because you never experienced death or at least you have no memory of experiencing death. You as well as adam understand/understood the concept of what death is. You dont have to experience(know) death to understand the concept.

Im not sure what you mean by meat. If you mean eating animals there is scripture that says what is food and what can be eaten(Gen 1:29,2:16-17). If you mean something else let me know.

They understood the concept of eating from the 2 banned trees was wrong. There is a difference between understanding a concept and experiencing(knowing) it. I gave the example of, you dont have to stick your hand in fire to understand the concept of that is bad, but you wont know it is bad until you experience it.

Sorry but children and teenagers don't understand the concept of death, and they hear and see it everyday on the news, so how could adam if he was never educated on it or experienced death of something?

 

[tumbleweed41]

No, you are misunderstanding me. Adam and eve didnt appreciate good even though they were experiencing it because they had nothing to compare it to. But they understood the concept of good and bad.

Like i said in my last post its better not to appreciate being able to walk than it is to have your legs cut off and not be able to walk just so you appreciate walking.

Just because it takes losing something to appreciate doesnt mean you should lose it on purpose just so you can appreciate it.

This seems to contradict your earlier statements.

Well you dont know what good is until you know what bad is.

They were told what the concept of bad and good were. But there is a difference between hearing a concept and exeriencing it yourself(knowing it).

Indicating that for complete free will, and the ability to truly differentiate between Good and Bad, they were destined by God to sin.

 

[Orias]

At least that is my opinion. Would you want to experience evil or stick your hand in fire for that matter?

Well it's not like we learned how to cook meat by never experimenting with the given graces around us

It' s a matter of association.

It's only bad if you associate it with being bad, where on the other hand, it is good because you learn from it, improvising.

You don't learn what is good, until you learn what is bad, which makes this whole Adam and Eve story bs.

 

[AntEmpire]

the mind is strong enough to overcome any non physical influence, physical deficincies cannot be overcome mentally.

influense of mind altering drugs and/or weak will dampands ones mental stability

The mind is made of physical chemicals, a chemical imabalance isn't something someone can just will away any more that MS

 

[AntEmpire]

Because if everyone was perfect it would be boring.

See heaven, the ultimate goal of christianity is to be eternally boring?

 

[AntEmpire]

Adam and eve had a choice, they were not killed by snakes in a snake pit they died by their own choice. If i tell you a plant is poisonous(and explain what poisonous is). Then someone else says iholdit is a liar he just doesnt want you to eat the plant because he knows you will become better than him. Whos fault is it you ate the plant and got poisoned mine or yours or the other person? Even if you blame the other person for giving you false information it was still your decision. But i dont see how you can blame me for your own choice or for the other person giving you false information. It doesnt make sense.

Adam and eve were innocent I wouldn't expect someone who isn't even a year old to obey me, Adam and eve lacked a knowledge of good and evil, so they could not know that it was good to obey god, or evil to disobey god. God put an evil snake with a purpose, god wanted man to eat that fruit and die.

Now, why does god punish people who didn't eat that fruit?

 

[AntEmpire]

Must be a lack of imagination.

No just an understanding of the word creation

Anything that comes from nature, is natural, even if synthetically evolved, it still is natural.

Man does not "un-willingly" seek a path, man creates his own.

Everything is natural. I don't know what you're talking about as far as un-willing path seeking

Persay, labels are dead, not words.

How are humans brought into existence?

Words are dead, empty, they only have life because people give them that.

Not by a human creating them, not as an after thought by a human who decided to create humans. I don't believe humans were created at all. We weren't brought into existence we came out of it as a natural peice of this world.

 

[iholdit]

This seems to contradict your earlier statements.





Indicating that for complete free will, and the ability to truly differentiate between Good and Bad, they were destined by God to sin.

It doesnt contradict my earlier statement. You cannot know good without knowing bad because knowing either is based on comparison. There was no reason to know good because that would mean you would also know bad.

You can experience good without knowing it is good. For example if you have never experienced pain that is good. But you wouldnt know it was good until you did experience pain. If you experienced both you would be able to say not feeling pain is better(good) than feeling pain(bad). But if you never felt pain it would always be good, without you knowing it was good because it would just be normal to you.

My statements have been consistant. There is no need to know good and bad or differentiate between them. You can still be happy without knowing sadness, but you wont call it happy you will call it normal.

Free will doesnt require you to sin it only requires that the option to sin exists. Its a matter of being able to choose to sin or not.

 

[iholdit]

Adam and eve were innocent I wouldn't expect someone who isn't even a year old to obey me, Adam and eve lacked a knowledge of good and evil, so they could not know that it was good to obey god, or evil to disobey god. God put an evil snake with a purpose, god wanted man to eat that fruit and die.

Now, why does god punish people who didn't eat that fruit?

Adam and eve knew the concept of good and bad and they were not the same as a 1 year old. You lack knowledge of death but you understand the concept of death. So if i told you eating something would cause you to die, you would understand what i was saying, without having to die first to understand me.

The snake had free will just like adam and eve did. Obviously the snake was not purposely put there or the snake would not have been punished for sinning as well.

If someone decides to decieve you based on their free will is that a gods fault as well? If someone decides to kill you should we blame a god for that? How about if you have a child who grows up to be a serial murderer should we blame you for that? Your child would have free will so how can you be blamed for the choices they make when they are adults?

What you are not understanding is a god is not punishing people who did not eat the fruit. As i have already explained if your parents decided to do drugs and you were born with a deformity because of it, is that a gods fault? No, its your parents fault. We are not being punished by a god we are being punished by other people etc. with free will who are choosing to do bad things.

 

[iholdit]

Well it's not like we learned how to cook meat by never experimenting with the given graces around us

It' s a matter of association.

It's only bad if you associate it with being bad, where on the other hand, it is good because you learn from it, improvising.

You don't learn what is good, until you learn what is bad, which makes this whole Adam and Eve story bs.

Do you associate pain with being good then?

What if the bad thing caused you to die, would you learn from it then?

I dont see how your statement makes adam and eve b.s.

 

[waitasec]

Adam wouldnt know what death was, the same way you dont know what death is because you never experienced death or at least you have no memory of experiencing death. You as well as adam understand/understood the concept of what death is. You dont have to experience(know) death to understand the concept.

there was no death indicted in the scriptures...of course he didn't experience it first hand, he didn't experience it as an observer either.

Im not sure what you mean by meat. If you mean eating animals there is scripture that says what is food and what can be eaten(Gen 1:29,2:16-17). If you mean something else let me know.

right no animals just fruit...that's why i say, adam hadn't witnessed death as an observer...

Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

They understood the concept of eating from the 2 banned trees was wrong. There is a difference between understanding a concept and experiencing(knowing) it. I gave the example of, you dont have to stick your hand in fire to understand the concept of that is bad, but you wont know it is bad until you experience it.

not that sticking your hand in a fire is bad, it hurts...
once you stick your hand in the fire will you know what being burned feels like

you can UNDERSTAND what the word delicious means but not
until you eat this tasty pastry will you KNOW what delicious is. god held them accountable for something they were not privy to. that is why this story shouldn't be taken literally, that's all.