Do you really think someone went "hmm let's try sex with a guy instead of a girl" and then got addicted to it? Do you, if you're straight, honestly think you could try it and get addicted?
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God and his hatred of homosexuality
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Do you really think someone went "hmm let's try sex with a guy instead of a girl" and then got addicted to it? Do you, if you're straight, honestly think you could try it and get addicted?
Blackmarch
W'rkncacntr
what happens when procreation is the means of bringing spirits into the physical world for whatever reasons- how would that affect your reasoning (if any)? (altho I suppose one can ask why didn't God just make humanity hermaphroditic or asexual... in which case theres not much of an answer in the Abrahamic sphere, other than referencing his "Image").The Bible says that god really hates those who commit homosexual acts.
Lev. 20:13:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Rom. 1:26-27
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise alsothe men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. "
And that's one harsh judgment: death and all. But as has been argued time and again here on RF, god doesn't necessarily hate the homosexual, just the physical intimacy (s)he shares with those of the same sex. Acknowledging this is correct---I see no reason to contest the point--- why would god be against such intimacy? Evidently he doesn't care that those of the same sex love each other, just as men and women love each other, or even that they desire and yearn for one another. Just don't go shedding your tunics and loincloths, and start rubbing up against one another. God, then, seems to have no trouble with homosexuals sharing any of emotions that occur between men and women. "Go ahead and covet your bro, just don't take it any further."
The crux of god's fury then is physical intimacy between those of the same sex: the touching of another's body for sexual gratification, in whole or in part. In as much as god endowed almost all of humanity with sexual desire; and even when apart of from the purpose of procreation he doesn't regard sexual intimacy as a no-no, I have to conclude that this isn't a bad thing in of itself. In fact, sexual gratification is a good thing!. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . except among those of the same sex.
So, *sigh* god
1. approves of all our body partsTherefore, I'm asking if anyone has any idea of what is so inherently bad about touching pee-pees or pearl diving that it's worth killing someone over? Just think of how innocuous homosexual acts are (no less so than those engaged in by heterosexuals). On the other hand, a man can play in the sandbox and god's just fine with it, but if a woman dare do the same, she had better start packing for hell. And, a woman can lay some lip, but a man had better keep his mouth shut.
2. approves of sexual gratification
3. approves of people of the same sex loving one another
4. disapproves of people of the same sex lovingly obtaining sexual gratification among themselves with their approved body parts.
Looked at rationally, I just can't make any sense of it. It's almost as if god randomly decided---no reasoning involved--- "Some people are going to desire those of the same sex much more than those of the opposite sex, which is just fine. And while there's nothing wrong with attaining sexual gratification if two people are of the opposite sex, this will be prohibited of people of the same. Why? Because I don't like it, that's why. And that's that!"
Now, I know that some say that trying to divine god's ways is impossible, in which case you people may be excused from participating here. But for those who do defend god and his ways by seeking to explain them, I welcome your input.
An even better idea: keep on using the term "marriage" to describe the legal union, and if certain groups or individuals want to have a distinct term that differentiates their union from the government-recognized relationship, let them be free to come up with whatever term they want.
Since some countries recognize foreign marriages but not foreign civil unions, a change in terminology by one country would necessarily mean fewer rights and benefits of marriage.
Skwim
Veteran Member
What particular aspect of my reasoning do you have in mind? I'm at a loss as to what to address. Please be more specific.
we-live-now
Active Member
I don't know.
I have to admit my lack of "experience" here and am going on "gut instinct".
Are there homosexuals who have not been abused or neglected in any way who were (generally) "loved well" by their parents and family?
I would have to be convinced with direct evidence that there are. If there are, then I will gladly change my mind.
gsa
Well-Known Member
Yes, there are. If you have not met gay men and lesbians who fit this profile, you just don’t know that many or your sample is skewed.
I speak from the most direct experience possible. Most gay men and lesbians have not suffered abuse and neglect, and if they suffer from familial discord it is almost always attributable to superstition, or what we call religion in these parts.
we-live-now
Active Member
I hear your words and will look to confirm this.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Obviously there are. I have several in my extended family. Good family, good people.
*
Blackmarch
W'rkncacntr
tanj my browser ate my first reply so now I'm doing it again...
sorry I meant to ask would it have any affect on your conclusion (the "no reason for God to hate alternative sexuality" one), if it was an item that was considered inside your line of reasoning. It would probably be near whatever you considered on reasons for procreation.
Although I doubt you'd find a decent answer from general Christianity (or at least from the bible) to this question tho as it would touch upon the topics of why God created man(and woman) the way he did, and also why he told them to fill the earth... about all you can really find is that god "saw that it was good".
also have you considered the potency of sexuality? its strong enough that plenty of individuals would risk death (and that was just those of the hetero inclination).
And also as well generally things that start out as small changes end up being bigger ones later on, perhaps the question of what trend(s) and psychological state did God want to push the Israelites to over time, might be one to ask as well.
--------
in a system of justice tho if one side was told to refrain from certain things, the other side would be as well.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Yes, I know several of them personally. My cousin being one of them.
You should get out more.
we-live-now
Active Member
Awe man. I was enjoying your response until you pointed the finger at me.
Jesus tells us that "out" = cold and darkness. Matt 8:12, Matt 22:13, Matt 25:30, Rev 22:15
I think I prefer "in".
Luke 17:21
Someone in this thread quoted from the Bible (I am not an expert of the Bible):
Lev. 20:13:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Rom. 1:26-27
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise alsothe men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. "
So when I read it, "Lev", it didn't strike me as saying GOD will "surely" put (them) to death, but that elements in SOCIETY might do that. Like what we see ISIS doing. It was a prediction of how horrible society can be at times. "their blood" to me, means members of their own society (blood) will do such murders, not God. I wonder what word in Jewish/Aramatic/whatever was actually used instead of "abomination".
As for the "Rom" quote, to me it is saying that "working which is UNSEEMLY" ... so it could be true even for heteros, yes? I am not so sure the emphasis is on WHO but rather WHAT. Yes? For example, if I eat toads, unless I really know what I am doing, I might poison myself, and eating toads is unseemly. But not eating generally.
Lev. 20:13:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Rom. 1:26-27
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise alsothe men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. "
So when I read it, "Lev", it didn't strike me as saying GOD will "surely" put (them) to death, but that elements in SOCIETY might do that. Like what we see ISIS doing. It was a prediction of how horrible society can be at times. "their blood" to me, means members of their own society (blood) will do such murders, not God. I wonder what word in Jewish/Aramatic/whatever was actually used instead of "abomination".
As for the "Rom" quote, to me it is saying that "working which is UNSEEMLY" ... so it could be true even for heteros, yes? I am not so sure the emphasis is on WHO but rather WHAT. Yes? For example, if I eat toads, unless I really know what I am doing, I might poison myself, and eating toads is unseemly. But not eating generally.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Leviticus are mosaic laws. It is a list of crimes and their prescribed punishment.
Romans is explaining that God 'gave up' those who practice 'vile' things. He does not have dealings with them and they will eventually receive 'recompense of their error' meaning God will eventually punish all such ones.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
You asked a question, I simply answered it.Awe man. I was enjoying your response until you pointed the finger at me.
Jesus tells us that "out" = cold and darkness. Matt 8:12, Matt 22:13, Matt 25:30, Rev 22:15
I think I prefer "in".
I just meant get out and meet more different kinds of people in the world. I don't find anything cold or dark in doing that.
we-live-now
Active Member
You asked a question, I simply answered it.
I just meant get out and meet more different kinds of people in the world. I don't find anything cold or dark in doing that.
I know.. just giving you a hard time.
Take care.we-live-now
Active Member
Please allow me to share my radical viewpoint re: The Bible and "the law". Sorry if it sounds like "preaching" and I am sorry for the length. I know no other way of saying these things. I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours studying scripture while forgetting what man has told me to believe or what they are "supposed to mean". I try to only believe what God tells me in my quiet time of contemplation. As a result, I have concluded some very radical and very good things about God and the Bible.
This will be very "radical" for those trained in the formal teachings and "traditions" of the Christian religion of moral "do's and don'ts". Again, these are my own conclusions and of course, I believe them very strongly. Also, please know that I am also a very scientific person and spend a lot of time asking and writing the answers to "how?" in a constant effort to try to reconcile them with the natural world and laws. Who can you reach if you aren't relevant?
God's written "Word" called the "Bible" in it's original words (not translations by man) is first and foremost a spiritual book written in and FOR the spiritual realms of man and Earth. It is not a book for the "outside" natural realms or natural man. If you have a physical body, then you are a at a minimum a natural man (or woman). This body is itself "death". Everyone who is in it will experience death. 100% of the time. It's a "prison of disobedience" as it creates a total separation from God. God himself put us all in one for a very good purpose. See Romans 11:32. Everything a person does "in" and "through" a natural body is what the Bible calls "sin" (either as immoral behavior under Old covenant or unbelief under the new) because he or she is separated from God due to the body itself.
Now, when a natural "man" reads the written Words of the bible, he thinks they are about the natural things he (or she) experienced while in a natural body. NOT TRUE! This is how God keeps the promise by faith only as a 100% gift and out of view totally from the natural man. 1 Cor 2:14, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 9:16 But, the natural man is also a very religous, works-oriented man (or woman) who will always try to earn his or her way to "heaven" and "earn God's favor" because of his fear of death. Thus, the truth to him (that it is a 100% gift) is very offensive. The truth to the natural man is a stumbling block to him. 1 Cor 1:23
The Bible (in it's original words and languages) is a specific set of "words" that point to the LIVING WORD in the HIDDEN, spiritual realms of Heaven, Earth and man himself. So, all the things we read about are not referring to natural earth and physical man. He ALREADY is DEAD 100% (spiritually speaking). The truth (as I see it so strongly within) is there are hidden realms and of spiritual Earth where all the Bible occurred, is occurring and will occur. The Bible calls them "the Heavens". But, we know them as our "body", "soul" and "spirit". Each are in a different spiritual realm of Earth. The physical body is in the lowest and darkest realm furthest "away" from God and the truth. This is true "death"... being separated moment by moment from God. Once we die in the lowest realm, we pass "up" to a higher realm with a higher, more grace-based true (reality). One of these is called "paradise" which is "Eden" (God's garden). Luke 23:43, Ez 28:13, Gen 2:8, 10, 15.
"Man" as God defines him (who's very words are truth) is first and foremost a spiritual man in Gen 1:27. He was placed inside a "soul" in a lower realm in Gen 2:7 and finally a body or "coat of skin" in Genesis 3:21. Each of these "lower realms" are under higher law which creates more division of the spiritual man. If you notice in Genesis 1:2, that darkness ALREADY existed. It did NOT occur when "Adam plunged us all into darkness". God was the one who caused us all to experience death in a natural soul and body under law. His VERY COMMAND of "do not eat from that tree" is DEATH to man. Man can NOT fulfill the law. Only God can.
Allow me to speak even more crazy and insane. I know some get offended that I believe this as pure truth. That's ok. That's by design. However, if a person really is seeking pure truth (outside of "religion") they will consider all things. I am convinced that a real "truth-seeker" has nothing to do with (outer) religion or attending church or any kind of outer religious works of the body (no matter how "good" they appear). It's an every-day, walking around, living experience in all situations. It isn't "putting on your church self" on Sunday - pretending you have no problems. It's being real to who you are and what you are going through day in an day out.
I am not afraid to listen to a "Buddhist", a "Hindu", a "Muslim", an "atheist", or even a "Christian" (whom I called myself for 8 years) or whatever classification they have. I believe NONE of us has a corner on the ONE SINGLE, TRUTH and we can all learn from each other. I am convinced real truth is universal but still hidden and transcends all these "divisions" that were created in the lower realms under law. For those of you who believe the Bible, ponder John 21:25. Sorry, I don't know the other religious texts. None of these "separations" that we currently have while in the body will exist in "heaven" with God (which will be a new "Heaven's"/mind & soul and new "Earth"/body). We will all be "one". We are now, we just can't see it. The body blocks us from doing so.
I am absolutely convinced as a person who believes God's word is 100% true that Jesus NEVER died in the physical realm that we now know and experience. He died in the spiritual realm (called "Egypt") and the soul realm originally called "Sodom"). See Revelation 11:8.
So, please know that all the "laws" of the OLD covenant/testament were given to spiritual man which killed him. He must fully die and "live" a short, natural existence in a "prison of disobedience" called a natural, human body (of sin being fully separated from God). God has great and wonderful purposes in all this.
So he can have mercy upon ALL people. Sorry if this sounds like "preaching". It's all just very good. We are all fighting over things that to God mean nothing. This entire current realm of the physical he says "lacks its TRUE form" (Gen 1:2) and is "reserved for fire". 2 Peter 3:7. But, don't worry, his fire is a PURE, HOLY and TRUE fire that purifies all that it touches and makes it like himself. He will recreate all things and all people into their true essence which, for now, is hidden inside in "seed" form.
Ok, I am done now, I think.
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SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
You too.I know.. just giving you a hard time.
InChrist
Free4ever
To say that God hates homosexuals is about as ridiculous as saying the manufacturer of laundry washing machines hates those washing machines because the instruction manual says the machine is not intended to was dishes because damage and breakage will incur. The scriptures are clear that God as Creator loves His creation, but hates the sin or behavior which causes damage.