God and omnipotence

[Merlin]

Do you have any proof that he is a part of this universe in case you believe in a god in the first place?

Nobody, including you, has any proof about anything. All of us only have our own beliefs. Of course, you think your beliefs that fact, and they might be - but equally they might not be. You might be completely wrong, that is what is interesting about these debates, the majority of people are wrong!

 

[Aurelian]

Great topic

I have a colorful understanding of God, though this belief is far from mainstream in our world nowadays. I liken it to how some Hindu sects believe in Vishnu or Krishna as God with an eternal Form, as opposed to being transcendant, formless and stuff like the Tao or the Force. I think even the highest God of all is like a person, with emotions just like us. This makes me feel much closer to God, and why I chose this path for me. I need Religion to be exciting and fun too, and know I connect well with God on an emotional, personal level as like a Father or good Friend

I simply can't connect with an Abrahamic or Eastern type of belief for the basic reason God is too transcendant and un-human...but I'm not against such beliefs or gods.

God to me is an all-powerful being, with a body of shining light, very attractive, delightful, and always young in appearance. He lives in a heavenly world with all his faithful and angels. He never grows old. He is Sol Invictus, Supreme Sun God of the late Roman Empire who usurped the earlier Polytheistic system (Christ would be the next God on the scene to do the same, although with Christ the whole pantheon of gods would disappear). His presence to us on earth is revealed through the life-giving Sun, who's rays are omnipotent and sustain us. The Hindus' most similar god to Sol Invictus would be Surya, their own important Sun god allthough Surya isn't considered the Supreme by most of the Hindus, maybe some I'm not sure.

Sol Invictus is not exactly Pervading everything, but His energies are. He also lets the angels, the lesser deities maintain the lesser functions of the earth and universe, like the rains, the moon, the seas, and the land.

Sorry if this is a bit long post, but It's hard to explain your feelings about God in just a few sentences

 

[Merlin]

This makes me feel much closer to God, and why I chose this path for me. I need Religion to be exciting and fun too,

You need not apologise for your beliefs. We all settle into beliefs in which we are comfortable, and we do then convince ourselves that they are facts.

Yours is as valid a choice as anybody else's.

 

[Merlin]

Let's look at an example and assume that God is all-good and any suffering in this world indeed has a meaning of some sort.

Religious philosophers have debated this for centuries. Try reading C S Lewis

"The Problem of Pain" He Undertakes to answer the question, "If God is good and God is omnipotent, then why is there pain and evil in the world?"

it is possible to have a God in which you can believe and for whom is worth striving to fulfil His purpose, and yet that God is not totally omnipotent.

 

[Aurelian]

yep. Not that I believe I hold any truth to my beliefs, Pagan religion is a way to connect with the forces of nature and hold them sacred. Many of us like to personify them and make everything more colorful with gods and myths, whether they hold any truth or really interact with us or not is a mystery. I believe in them but It's just what I like and am comfortable with

 

[lilithu]

Somebody created them. If God cannot change them, whatever it was that created them was greater (whether you call he/she/it a God or not)

There is not necessarily any "higher power" who created these constraints on God. Æsahættr and I have been having the same discussion in another thread:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=247194#poststop

The limitions on God may simply be the limitations that are necessary for there to be creation. Things cannot exist without there being constraints to existence. That's the difference between potentiality and actuality. God may be potentially omnipotent but not actually omnipotent. Hopefully, what I mean by that is clear in the thread cited above.

Not making a distinction between the two is what leads to ridiculous questions like "Can God create an object so heavy that God cannot lift it?" Which is why I generally argue against using the word "omnipotence" with God.

 

[JerryL]

You need not apologise for your beliefs. We all settle into beliefs in which we are comfortable, and we do then convince ourselves that they are facts.

I'm somehow reminded of the saying "Beauty is on;y skin deep is something ugly people say".

If one admits that their belief has no real chance of beinf right, how can one possibly assert to believe them?

I certainly recognize, as a skeptic, that it's possible that reality doesn't exists, or exists in a manner completely seperate from how my senses percieve. However, I have no knowldege or stimuli of which I am aware would would make such a conclusion useful so I acknowledge it, assume my senses are generally accurate (as they seem to be) and move on.

From there, my beliefs are founded on that sensor input and my best-effort to impartially interperate it. I deliberately avoid adding assumption or interpreting speculation as fact. Often, my beliefs are downright uncomfortable to me, but they are what can be established or inferred emperically.

In short, I don't agree with your statement at all.

 

[michel]

"The Problem of Pain" He Undertakes to answer the question, "If God is good and God is omnipotent, then why is there pain and evil in the world?"

That, I believe is not too difficult a question to answer.

Without pain and evil, there would be no 'good' and we would not understand the relief of not feeling pain. For everything there is an opposite in existence.

 

[cardero]

is it important that we believe that he is omnipotent?

You should not base your relationship with any entity for what they have or what they can do. It should be based on the simple aspect that you enjoy being in each other's prescence.

 

[Skavau]

Religious philosophers have debated this for centuries. Try reading C S Lewis

"The Problem of Pain" He Undertakes to answer the question, "If God is good and God is omnipotent, then why is there pain and evil in the world?"

it is possible to have a God in which you can believe and for whom is worth striving to fulfil His purpose, and yet that God is not totally omnipotent.

Indeed it is. Obviously, you're a Process Theologian and believe God is not all-powerful. Does that mean he is not powerful enough to stop evil in this world or does he choose not to?

 

[Merlin]

That, I believe is not too difficult a question to answer.

Without pain and evil, there would be no 'good' and we would not understand the relief of not feeling pain. For everything there is an opposite in existence.

It might be slightly more complicated than that. 'the problem with pain' by C. S. Lewis is well worth reading, and will be in the local library as it is a classic.

 

[Merlin]

Just a thought....but one which I see that leads nowhere. What is there after reaching the Goal of 'oneness with God' ? there is none.

That assumes that God Himself does not have the goal of reaching oneness with his God. Maybe he cannot do that until sufficient numbers of us have joined him? Just a thought.

 

[Merlin]

I'm somehow reminded of the saying "Beauty is on;y skin deep is something ugly people say".

If one admits that their belief has no real chance of beinf right, how can one possibly assert to believe them?

I certainly recognize, as a skeptic, that it's possible that reality doesn't exists, or exists in a manner completely seperate from how my senses percieve. However, I have no knowldege or stimuli of which I am aware would would make such a conclusion useful so I acknowledge it, assume my senses are generally accurate (as they seem to be) and move on.

From there, my beliefs are founded on that sensor input and my best-effort to impartially interperate it. I deliberately avoid adding assumption or interpreting speculation as fact. Often, my beliefs are downright uncomfortable to me, but they are what can be established or inferred emperically.

In short, I don't agree with your statement at all.

If you assume that you are definitely and undoubtedly correct,and if you leave no room whatsoever for any doubt, then if the truth was ever presented to you you would not see it. As I have said before, most people present their beliefs as absolute fact. But, if it is true that there is only one true religion, the majority of contributors are wrong.

It is a great comfort to realise that it's other people were wrong and not ourselves. Don't you find that?

I believe in God. I don't need any other beliefs.

 

[Merlin]

are you suggesting God is without knowledge of the strength of that particular persons faith and therefore, no longer in control of his creations and also unable to know everything about them & therefore inflicts suffering to find something out when he should effectively know it already.

It is reasons such as the unbalance of suffering globally, which lead me to disbelieve that all suffering is just. I cannot grasp the idea.

Most of the questions you asked are answered by normal observation. We can all see that God does not favor a particular type of person or a particular religion when there are natural disasters. The priests and the criminals are all saved or killed apparently at random. It suggests from your questions that we know what God wants from us. I suspect that we do not, but whatever it is, I believe that God just does not want us to do it for him he actually needs us to do it for him.

It is all related to what we are able to understand. Let me give you an analogy. (Please don't discuss the analogy, just accept it as illustrative)

Supposing a farmer takes his tractors and machinery and chain saws etc into a big wilderness area. He tames the wilderness, plants crops, and makes some fields of grazing. He then brings in a flock of sheep.

Imagine for the moment that you see the world from these sheep's point of view. They get on about their business and are happy in their own world. They know they have a higher being (a God?) Because he does good things for them.

He scatters magic powder to make the grass grow better. In the winter he comes with a magic snorting Dragon (a tractor) and gives us food. If we are ill, he gives us medicine and makes us better.

From the point of view of the sheep the powers that this farmer has make him a God. And indeed, compared to the sheep he is. If the sheep could listen, there would be no way we could explain the powers the farmer has or his objectives. They are simply so far outside of the sheep's understanding and experience to be understood.

But in this analogy we know two things. The first is that the farmer has staggering powers and knowledge compared to the sheep, but they are not infinite. Within the sheep's environment, they are powerful enough that the sheep would believe they were infinite. The second thing is that we know the farmer has his own objectives for the sheep and its offspring.

Please, don't take the analogy too literally. You know I am not suggesting we are here to be eaten or that we are sheep. I am simply trying to illustrate that there may well be limits on what God can do, and a purpose (spiritual) that we have to fulfil and God actually needs us to fulfil it. "He waits in eager anticipation for the sons of man to fulfil his purpose".

Maybe if we were less certain, we would discover it.

 

[Skavau]

Most of the questions you asked are answered by normal observation. We can all see that God does not favor a particular type of person or a particular religion when there are natural disasters. The priests and the criminals are all saved or killed apparently at random. It suggests from your questions that we know what God wants from us. I suspect that we do not, but whatever it is, I believe that God just does not want us to do it for him he actually needs us to do it for him.

Well, it seems that some areas in the world get hammered more than others.

Scandinavia for example, doesn't get hit by storms as much as Florida and the Southern States do. Why is this? Were the locations deliberately designed by God to be more effected by storms than others? If so, why did God design the world to be uneven in balance of storms and suffering?

While the disasters could indeed be random - it is who they hit which is unfair. They hit people living good lifes and living a morally just life. Why would a caring God allow disasters to effect good people (by his moral standards)?

In accordance with your analogy, I like it. It presupposes that nothing is all-knowing and nothing omnipotent. It just seems like that and I agree with that entirely.

I do however, reject the fact that what you're implying is that we shouldn't bother to attempt to understand the mindset of an ultimate being because we are potentially not knowledgable enough. Remember, that if we have free-will given to us by a God - with this free-will we will have the ability to criticise and make arguments against anything if we so choose to do so. I have free-will and I do wish to use such.

You also mention that we have a purpose in our life - but what is this purpose of ours. Given that you assume God is clearly beyond our knowledge and ideas - then what is our purpose?

 

[Merlin]

Well, it seems that some areas in the world get hammered more than others.

Scandinavia for example, doesn't get hit by storms as much as Florida and the Southern States do. Why is this? Were the locations deliberately designed by God to be more effected by storms than others? If so, why did God design the world to be uneven in balance of storms and suffering?

While the disasters could indeed be random - it is who they hit which is unfair. They hit people living good lifes and living a morally just life. Why would a caring God allow disasters to effect good people (by his moral standards)?

In accordance with your analogy, I like it. It presupposes that nothing is all-knowing and nothing omnipotent. It just seems like that and I agree with that entirely.

I do however, reject the fact that what you're implying is that we shouldn't bother to attempt to understand the mindset of an ultimate being because we are potentially not knowledgable enough. Remember, that if we have free-will given to us by a God - with this free-will we will have the ability to criticise and make arguments against anything if we so choose to do so. I have free-will and I do wish to use such.

You also mention that we have a purpose in our life - but what is this purpose of ours. Given that you assume God is clearly beyond our knowledge and ideas - then what is our purpose?

I suspect that if we had a discussion we would agree on many things. But I think you have misunderstood me. I think it is our absolute mission to try to discover what God wants us to do for him. Whether it is worth trying to understand "his mind set" is a different question.

My disagreement with almost every religion (not just Christian) is that (in my opinion) they reduce what they believe God wants us to do for him to quite trivial things. They all think that we must pray in a certain way, using certain words. We must be baptised by a certain group of people who have (in their tradition) the 'only authority of God'.

They want us to do good works and live clean lives. Both of which are extremely laudable requirements and we should do so, but I cannot believe that is why we were put on the earth. In fact I believe that if you convince yourself that these simple requirements are all that God needs, then you will waste your life (from a spiritual point of view) just being a good person and a regular churchgoer.

 

[lilithu]

They want us to do good works and live clean lives. Both of which are extremely laudable requirements and we should do so, but I cannot believe that is why we were put on the earth. In fact I believe that if you convince yourself that these simple requirements are all that God needs, then you will waste your life (from a spiritual point of view) just being a good person and a regular churchgoer.

So what is this grand thing that God wants us to do that's bigger than being a good person and helping those in need? These requirements may be "simple" but I have a hard enough time fulfilling them, when I am honest with myself, without searching for some additional spiritual quest.

 

[Skavau]

I suspect that if we had a discussion we would agree on many things. But I think you have misunderstood me. I think it is our absolute mission to try to discover what God wants us to do for him. Whether it is worth trying to understand "his mind set" is a different question.

I personally believe humanity has a mission and a lust for knowledge while it exists. This knowledge also covers belief systems, so I believe it is a good thing to try to uncover what a God-like figure is entirely. It may be hard, it may be impossible - but it's about the lust for knowledge.

My disagreement with almost every religion (not just Christian) is that (in my opinion) they reduce what they believe God wants us to do for him to quite trivial things. They all think that we must pray in a certain way, using certain words. We must be baptised by a certain group of people who have (in their tradition) the 'only authority of God'.

I agree with that.

They want us to do good works and live clean lives. Both of which are extremely laudable requirements and we should do so, but I cannot believe that is why we were put on the earth. In fact I believe that if you convince yourself that these simple requirements are all that God needs, then you will waste your life (from a spiritual point of view) just being a good person and a regular churchgoer.

Indeed - I ask you what a God would want us to do?

 

[michel]

I suspect that if we had a discussion we would agree on many things. But I think you have misunderstood me. I think it is our absolute mission to try to discover what God wants us to do for him. Whether it is worth trying to understand "his mind set" is a different question.

My disagreement with almost every religion (not just Christian) is that (in my opinion) they reduce what they believe God wants us to do for him to quite trivial things. They all think that we must pray in a certain way, using certain words. We must be baptised by a certain group of people who have (in their tradition) the 'only authority of God'.

They want us to do good works and live clean lives. Both of which are extremely laudable requirements and we should do so, but I cannot believe that is why we were put on the earth. In fact I believe that if you convince yourself that these simple requirements are all that God needs, then you will waste your life (from a spiritual point of view) just being a good person and a regular churchgoer.

Good post, merlin.

I agree that we need to try and find out what God wants of us; what makes him 'tick' what size he is is totally immaterial - and will never get us anywhere, because i don't believe that we have ability to think that big.

I tend to agree with the second and third paragraphs too; just to live a clean life, go to church and try to be virtuous is hard - admitedly- something that I don't believe that I can achieve. On the other hand, it is not enough for me.

I keep hoping that God will tell me one day what he wants from me; as far as i am concerned, he can have whatever he wants from me - except the sacrifice of my wife and children. Alas, I am still waiting............

 

[Merlin]

Good post, merlin.

I agree that we need to try and find out what God wants of us; what makes him 'tick' what sixe he is is totally immaterial - and will never get us anywhere, because i don't believe that we have ability to think that big.

I tend to agree with the second and third paragraphs too; just to live a clean life, go to church and try to be virtuous is hard - admitedly- something that I don't believe that I can achieve. On the other hand, it is not enough for me.

I keep hoping that God will tell me one day what he wants from me; as far as i am concerned, he can have whatever he wants from me - except the sacrifice of my wife and children. Alas, I am still waiting............

Thank you

A daily prayer.

May God give me:-

the patience to wait for his call
the wisdom to recognise it when it comes
to strength to do what He asks

Amen