God and Time

[Beaudreaux]

In the same verse, though, it says "From everlasting to everlasting, you are God."

Yeah. He's always God and he expeciences time really really fast.

 

[Mister Emu]

1 - Are there any references to this sort of a timeless deity in the Christian Bible?

Romcat already noted the most blatant one I can think of off the top of my head:

"Before Abraham was, I am"... Deity exists concurrently in two separate times. One can, I believe within reason, extrapolate that to all times. That is a God who exists simultaneously in all times... in other words, a timeless God.

3 - 'extra credit' - If you are one that uses such a term to describe god, can you assign any coherent meaning to the term? (preferably, something other than negation)

Existing outside of the temporal bounds of our universe.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Nois Forme,

God and Time

*God* - it is a label developed by humans to understand the oneness of existence which is timeless, space less, etc.
*Time* - another label developed by human as the mind creates dualities and time is an aspect of the that. Mind can only understand the past and the future, it is never present. Being present in the HERE-NOW [without past or future] that the timelessness can be reached.

Love & rgds

 

[Nois Forme]

Romcat already noted the most blatant one I can think of off the top of my head:

"Before Abraham was, I am"... Deity exists concurrently in two separate times. One can, I believe within reason, extrapolate that to all times. That is a God who exists simultaneously in all times... in other words, a timeless God.

Yes, there have been a few that have not understood, and so gave similar verses. Allow me to edit your phrases to demonstrate what's going on here. You wrote;

Deity exists concurrently in two separate times.

Strip that down to its essentials;

'...exists...in...time(s)...'


and the same here;

That is a God who exists simultaneously in all times.

'...God...exists...in...time(s)...'


Do you see what this does? It is the opposite of timeless. It is describing a temporal being - one that certainly experiences time differently than man - but a temporal being none the less.

Existing outside of the temporal bounds of our universe.

Points for not using merely negation, but I'm afraid this doesn't describe anything coherent. It's a bit like the phrase 'before the big bang'. I'm not convinced there can be something 'outside of the temporal bounds' just as I'm not convinced a thing can be 'before' there was time (the big bang).

 

[Thief]

And why then do we get older?

Chemistry.
You are a fire. You burn. The rate of burn is controlled.
The balance is so delicate, most of what you consume is spent maintaining your body temperature.
But all chemistry fails....and the fire will go out.
Some say it's the lack of molecules at the tail end of your dna.
The tail gets shorter as we get older.
The extra molecules help to make proper copies as the cells divide.
That division will fail.
Like making copies of a document, and the using the copy to make another one.
Eventually the details fade. Good reproduction fades.
Then the controls that keep you burning... falter.

Back to topic.....time does not exist.
It is not a force...not a substance.
It is a quotient...a number on a chalk board.

I do think it odd.
People believe in time as if it were real.
People believe in God as if He is real.

God is real. Time is not.
And most people don't seem able to sort it out.

 

[Mister Emu]

Do you see what this does? It is the opposite of timeless. It is describing a temporal being - one that certainly experiences time differently than man - but a temporal being none the less.

A being which can simultaneously exist in multiple times is atemporal. The meaning of timeless is not "can not interact with time", it is "independent of time".

Points for not using merely negation, but I'm afraid this doesn't describe anything coherent. It's a bit like the phrase 'before the big bang'. I'm not convinced there can be something 'outside of the temporal bounds' just as I'm not convinced a thing can be 'before' there was time (the big bang).

I fail to see how the two things are related. Saying that there could be a timeless existence outside of our universe is not the same as saying there was a before time.

 

[PolyHedral]

Back to topic.....time does not exist.

Einstein would like a word with you. Time most certainly exists, since it can be warped by high energies, or gravity.

 

[Thief]

Einstein would like a word with you. Time most certainly exists, since it can be warped by high energies, or gravity.

I have his book. The one he wrote for the layman.

That mathematicians speak of time as fabric doesn't mean it is fabric.
Expression must be dealt in some form...or there would be silence.
But the metaphor is not literal.

Time is not a substance. Time is not a force.
Time is a quotient on a blackboard.
An expression used to describe the relationship between mass and energy.
Time is one number divided (or multiplied) by another number.
Numbers exist in your head.
Numbers are a mental construct.

The number system substitutes for the laboratory.
The experiment is too large for the building.
That science can predict an event, doesn't mean the mental construct
used has physical substance.

 

[PolyHedral]

But it is proven that if I travel relative to you, or if I am in a different gravity well, our clocks will not be synchronized. In order for that to happen, "time" must exist in some sense.

 

[Thief]

But it is proven that if I travel relative to you, or if I am in a different gravity well, our clocks will not be synchronized. In order for that to happen, "time" must exist in some sense.

Movement is relative.
Time is a mathematical description of that 'relativity'.

 

[PolyHedral]

How would movement on its own cause clocks to slow down? Time, as a way to measure rate, must exist, since it can be modified.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

God, and the concept of being out side of time, is not expressly confirmed by the Bible.

However it is accepted as a truth by many Churches, and logic would certainly support that belief.

Scientifically... Time is not a constant, but is related to both mass and movement relative to the speed of light.

It God has the power believed of him... he can not be "subject" to any of these limitations.

 

[Thief]

How would movement on its own cause clocks to slow down? Time, as a way to measure rate, must exist, since it can be modified.

The equations demonstrate...actually predict....what happens as the basic forces of our universe play one unto the other.

But the equation has a factor we call time.
When you speak of time...it is the movement...you are describing.
Not a force.

I highlighted the word measure, because that is all time can do.
It's no more than a ratio....a means of measure.

As for the clock slowing down....
It is a real object with movement going on.
It will be influenced by it's speed and direction (vector)
as you would be influenced. It's all relative.

As for the topic and God's relation to time.....probably not.
Most people want to say...God is everywhere.
That voids this discussion immediately.
He doesn't have to move to get from point 'a' to 'b'.
No vector...no velocity...no mass (that we know of).

Looks like a label that won't stick.

But if you consider that He might have proximity?....then what?

 

[logician]

Time does not exist.

There are some physicists who propose this.

 

[Thief]

There are some physicists who propose this.

Well gee....it's about 'time'.
I think it was our sense of language that took it the wrong way.
We speak time as a tangible...as a force....
and apparently most people just keep on talking.

Some'times' it pays to 'slow down' and take the 'time' to think.

 

[Willamena]

1 - Are there any references to this sort of a timeless deity in the Christian Bible?

You quote it yourself - "The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms..." Dut. 33:27

It uses timeless in the same sense as in Matt. 25:34-46:
- "...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

I take timeless to refer to the creator who is present in each moment. It's an image of immenance (creator, hence creation, indwelling every moment), as well as of imminence (creator being being before the moment of creation). Creator precedes us (creation), "in the beginning."

-for reference, the couple of passages I find that relate to an 'eternal' god, along with the meanings of the words used;

Deu 33:27 (NIV) The eternal God [is thy] refuge...

eternal from 'qedem';
1) east, antiquity, front, that which is before, aforetime
a) front, from the front or east, in front, mount of the East
b) ancient time, aforetime, ancient, from of old, earliest time
c) anciently, of old (adverb)
d) beginning
e) east

I see there images of 'come before' and before time. :yes:

 

[PolyHedral]

But the equation has a factor we call time.
When you speak of time...it is the movement...you are describing.
Not a force.

Yes, movement through a 4th dimension, normally called "time". This still means that you're original statement, "time does not exist", is wrong.

As for the clock slowing down....
It is a real object with movement going on.
It will be influenced by it's speed and direction (vector)
as you would be influenced. It's all relative.

But it will also be influenced by gravitational fields, no movement involved.

But if you consider that He might have proximity?....then what?

This question is nonsensical if God does not have a defined location.

 

[Skwim]

God, and the concept of being out side of time, is not expressly confirmed by the Bible.

However it is accepted as a truth by many Churches, and logic would certainly support that belief.

What logic is that?

Scientifically... Time is not a constant, but is related to both mass and movement relative to the speed of light.

How is time related to mass? I assume you're saying there's a correlation between a change in mass and a change in time.

 

[PolyHedral]

How is time related to mass?

Time slows down in the presence of a gravitational field, which appears near any mass.

 

[Nois Forme]

Friend Nois Forme,



*God* - it is a label developed by humans to understand the oneness of existence which is timeless, space less, etc.
*Time* - another label developed by human as the mind creates dualities and time is an aspect of the that. Mind can only understand the past and the future, it is never present. Being present in the HERE-NOW [without past or future] that the timelessness can be reached.

Love & rgds

This may not be responsive to the dilemma in my OP, but there's no denying the wisdom of what you have said here. Nicely done. peace