God Debate

[pandamonk]

'If there is any argument you wish me to go into more detail to explain, or otherwise, let me know and i will. And also, if there is any argument which you wish to argue against, i will be happy to show the strength and validity of each argument'
Lets see you in action then pandamonk. The stage is all yours. :shout Knockout

You have to first put forth some arguments against mine before I take centre stage,lol

 

[pandamonk]

Feeling rather ignored again.:149:

 

[Hazel]

...extreme confusion...*gathers thoughts*...sorry about that I am very tired.

The whole God is perfect therefore there is no God is absolute balderdash.

God is perfect. Since we are not perfect we cannot comprehend true perfection. God created a perfect universe with people. These people sinned...mainly as a result of Satan's deception. God being perfect (and loving) gave humans the choice to do this. The world became imperfect because of sin, as a result of sin...Therefore a very perfect God created a perfect universe that was corrupted by humans who chose to give up a life of perfection. Because God is perfect and therefore holy beyond our reckoning we were seperated from him...cut off. He being perfect (and loving) sent his son to die...because Jesus is perfect he could take the sin-debt for us.

All of this is getting way off subject, but is necesary, I don't believe you can disprove your statements by other religious beliefs...or anything short of the truth.

 

[Hazel]

Sorry, one more thing.

God is not a person. If you don't believe in spiritual beings than there is no way for you to comprehend this. Arguments based on God being a person are rubbish.

 

[Aqualung]

I'll take on your arguments, pandamonk. I hope I can help you understand where I'm coming from.

Perfection vs creation argument

Version 1
1. If God exists, then he is perfect.

Okay.

2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe

Well, Jesus was the actual "creator" of the universe, but he did it under God's direction.

3. A perfect being can have no needs or wants

Not true. Perfect beings can have needs and wants. His want is for all of his spirit children (everybody who has ever had a body and some who haven't) to progress and to become like him. His perfect love for everybody makes it so he wants us to grow and progress and to become as like him as possible.

4. If any being created the universe, then it must have had some need or want to do so

Yep. And I don't really understand why you think a perfect being can't have a need or a want.

Any questions with that one? I'll take these section by section, for ease of debating.

 

[Aqualung]

Version 2
1. If God exists then he is perfect

True.

2. If God exists he is the creator of the universe

Well, Jesus was the actual creator, but he did it under God's direction.

3. If a being is perfect, then whatever he creates must be perfect

Not true. While it may not be perfect to your standards, it was exactly what was necessary to fulfill his wants (see previous post to find out what his wants are.) He coudn't have a "perfect" universe to do that, but "perfection" is rather subjective. It was perfect for what he wanted to accomplish.

4. But the universe(although complex) is not perfect

Oops. I kind of explained that under #3.

How's that one? Any questions?

 

[Aqualung]

The immutability vs creation argument

1. If God exists, then he is immutable
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe
3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention
4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it
5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4)
6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5)

I don't even get this one. Are you saying that God can't do anything? So you for some reason think that we beleive that god must, for some reason, always have the exact same desires, from day to day, hour after hour, and it must be impossible for him to fulfill those? Am I misunderstanding, because that seems like a strange argument. I've never heard that one before, so am I interpreting it right?

 

[Hazel]

Here's one for you.

We are all imperfect beings living in an imperfect universe.

We therefore have imperfect views of life in general

Hence we cannot understand anything that is perfect and all our arguments against his existence would be skewed by our imperfection.

 

[Aqualung]

The immutability vs all-loving argument
1. If God exists, then he is immutable

Okay, but to an extent. He is only immutable on a large scale. His purpose for us never changes, but he obviously can change things (giving the isrealites the mosaic law, for example.)

2. If God exists, then he is all-loving

Sure.

3. An immutable being cannot be affected by events

God is not immutable in the sense that he never is affected. He is affected by lots of things, but look at it this way. Say you are a sinner. God still loves you. He is not "affected" by that event in that he will stop loving you. If you go around sinning all the time, however, and then one day you sit down and half-heartedly ask to have your sins forgiven, he won't do that. You have not truely repented. If a person who has truely repented of their sins sits down and does that same thing, you will be forgiven. (I'm not sure if that's even relevant...) That illustrates in a fashion that God is changed by what you do. Does that make any sense at all? I didn't really know where you were going with the argument, so I coudn't answer it all too well. Sorry, but ask more questions, and it will help me to get my points down.

 

[Aqualung]

1. If God exists, then he is transcendent
Not true.
2. If God exists, then he is a person (or a personal being)
3. If something is transcendent, then it cannot exist and perform actions within time[/QUOTE]These are some other defenitions of transcendent. If you think that he is transcendent in that he can't do things in time, then you arguing things that I, as a christian, don't beleive.
Surpassing others; preeminent or supreme.
Lying beyond the ordinary range of perception

 

[Aqualung]

The transcendence vs omnipresence argument
1. If God exists, then he is transcendent (i.e., outside space and time)

Not in the way you're thinking. He is not outside of space and time.

2. If God exists, then he is omnipresent

Only the holy Ghost in omnipresent. God isn't. That pretty much takes care of that one.

 

[Aqualung]

1. If God exists, then he is nonphysical

Not true. God is physical. He has a human body.

 

[Aqualung]

1. If God exists, then he is omnipresent

Only the holy Ghost is.
[QUTOE=pandamonk]2. If God exists, then he is a person (or a personal being)[/QUOTE]True. Both God the Father and Jesus are personal beings, with a physical body.

3. Whatever is omnipresent cannot be a person (or a personal being)

Well, then I guess it's a good thing you're talking about two completely different beings!

1. If God exists, then he is omniscient

I posted something along those lines here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19100
Was that enough information, or do you still have questions about that one?

 

[Aqualung]

1. If God exists, then he is an all-just judge

Depends what you mean

2. If God exists, then he is an all-merciful judge

Depends what you mean

3. An all-just judge treat every offender with exactly the severity that he/she deserves

True.

4. An all-merciful judge treats every offender with less severity that he/she deserves

True.

5. It is impossible to treat an offender both with exactly the severity that he/she deserves and also with less severity than he/she deserves

True. That's why it's good to have clearification on what all just and all merciful mean. He will judge each one of us justly. By that, he will take into account all the things we have seen, done, and been subjected to. But then he will sentence us mercifully.

The perfection argument
1. A perfect being is not subject to change

Untrue. A perfect being must change when surrounded by the imperfect.

2. A perfect being knows everything

Not true. God does not know everything. He could know everything if he hadn't given us free will, but he did. Therefore, he does not know the future. He doesn't know the choices we will actually make, though he knows the choices we will have and the possible outcomes of each descision.

3. A perfect being that knows everything always knows what time it is
4. A being that always knows what time it is, is subject to change

I don't understant that. I also didn't get "god and the best possible world."

God's Greatness

1. God is a being than which no greater being can be thought

To an extent. There may be no one greater, but I think he probably has equals.

2. Greatness includes greatness of virtue

I can live with that.
[QUTOE=pandamonk]3. Therefore, God is a being than which no being could be more virtuous[/QUOTE]That's a logical progression.

4. But virtue involves overcoming pains and danger

True.

5. Indeed, a being can only be properly said to be virtuous it if can suffer pain or be destroyed

True also.

6. A God that can suffer pain or is destructible is not one than which no greater being can be thought
7. For you can think of a greater being, that is, one that is nonsuffering and indestructible

No such being exists. God is not the way you are describing.

 

[Aqualung]

1. If God exists, then he is all-good
2. If God exists, then he is omnipotent

Perhaps that's true.

3. An all-good being wishes only good things

Another perhaps

4. An omnipotent being has total power to do whatever he wishes

True

5. yet there is evil
6. It is impossible for an all-good, omnipotent being to exist and allow evil (from 3 and 4)

Not true. The evil is there because God is all-good. He loves us, and he wants us to become like him, so we need evil. We need to be tested, we need to prove ourselves in order to become like him. Letting us experience is evil is the best thing he could do for us.

1. God exists and created everything ex nihilo and in time

Not really ex nihilo. I woudn't say that.

2. Prior to creation there was nothing but God

Untrue. That is completely false.

Omniscience vs MEEEEE
1. To be omniscient, God needs to know everything I know

Okay

No one other than me knows that what I know in knowing that
2. I am making a mess
The closest others may get is knowing that
3. Lee Brady (or pandamonk) is making a mess
or

4. he (indicating me) is making a mess
5. What they know when they know 3 or 4 is not what I know in knowing 2
6. It is impossible for God to know what I know in knowing 2
7. It is impossible for God to know everything I know
8. It is impossible for for God to be omniscient(omniscience is impossible)
9. Therefore it is impossible for God to exist

Is this argument about pronouns?

1. If Got exists, God has not had the feelings of lust or envy
2. If God exists, God exists as a being who knows at least everything man knows
3. If God exists as a being who knows at least everything man knows, God knows lust and envy
4. If God knows lust or envy, God has had the feelings of lust and envy
5. God exists.
By hypothesis
6. God has had and has not had the feelings of lust and envy (from 1-5)
7. Therefore, God does not exist

God knowing that you feel lustful at times does not mean that He feels lustful, too. I know that people are lustful, but everytime I think about that I don't immediately feel lust, as well. That's kind of a rediculous argument. Does you knowing that my room is exceptionally hot in the summertime make you start to sweat? Don't be silly.

Well, that's all I can say right now as to the arguments. If anything doesn't make sense, or isn't in depth enough, tell me.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Not true. The evil is there because God is all-good. He loves us, and he wants us to become like him, so we need evil. We need to be tested, we need to prove ourselves in order to become like him. Letting us experience is evil is the best thing he could do for us.

That doesn't make any sense. Why do we need to be tested? Especially when God supposedly already knows how we will test before he subjects us to it... It just seems a little redundant to me.

Untrue. That is completely false.

What else was there? For curiosity's sake.

God knowing that you feel lustful at times does not mean that He feels lustful, too.

Is he too busy feeling wrathful and jealous?

 

[Radar]

...extreme confusion...*gathers thoughts*...sorry about that I am very tired.

The whole God is perfect therefore there is no God is absolute balderdash.

God is perfect. Since we are not perfect we cannot comprehend true perfection. God created a perfect universe with people. These people sinned...mainly as a result of Satan's deception. God being perfect (and loving) gave humans the choice to do this. The world became imperfect because of sin, as a result of sin...Therefore a very perfect God created a perfect universe that was corrupted by humans who chose to give up a life of perfection. Because God is perfect and therefore holy beyond our reckoning we were seperated from him...cut off. He being perfect (and loving) sent his son to die...because Jesus is perfect he could take the sin-debt for us.

All of this is getting way off subject, but is necesary, I don't believe you can disprove your statements by other religious beliefs...or anything short of the truth.

How could the perfect god not create something that is perfect (humans)? Especially if we were created in his image. Seeing how he is perfect his image must be perfect therefore we should be perfect. Why can't we just face it there is no proof and there is no dis-proof? All is not knowable until this so-called judgment day when all will be revealed. I am agnostic so I say I don't know and believe that it is unknowable one way or the other. I don't seek an answer because if it is or is not true then I will find out soon enough. But until then I will not fear any supernatural being and live life to it's fullest with respect for others.

 

[Aqualung]

That doesn't make any sense. Why do we need to be tested? Especially when God supposedly already knows how we will test before he subjects us to it... It just seems a little redundant to me.

We need tests because he doesn't know how we will test. It's like getting into college. You have to take tests to make sure you are smart enough. Your parents might have done a good job of making sure you learned everything, and they know you are smart enough. But you have to prove it. You could choose to not prepare yourself well, or you could choose to fall asleep in the middle of the test. The fact that you are capable of doing well does not mean you will. The same thing is true with the tests. God knows that you CAN do the right thing, but, since he gave you free will and the ability to choose to not do what is right, he has to test you so you can show that you worthy to become like him.

What else was there? For curiosity's sake

Well, being LDS, I beleive that God was once a man. So, there is his God, there were all his spirit bros. and sis., there was his world, and there are lots of other worlds, and things of that nature.

 

[Aqualung]

How could the perfect god not create something that is perfect (humans)? Especially if we were created in his image. Seeing how he is perfect his image must be perfect therefore we should be perfect. Why can't we just face it there is no proof and there is no dis-proof? All is not knowable until this so-called judgment day when all will be revealed. I am agnostic so I say I don't know and believe that it is unknowable one way or the other. I don't seek an answer because if it is or is not true then I will find out soon enough. But until then I will not fear any supernatural being and live life to it's fullest with respect for others.

About the perfection: adam and eve, who were created in the image of God, were perfect. Then, Satan tempted them, so they opened themselves up to corruption. We are therefore not perfect. And I agree. There's probably a lot of stuff we won't know until the judgement day.

 

[pandamonk]

Sorry I've taken a while to reply. Haven't been on for a while.

I'll take on your arguments, pandamonk. I hope I can help you understand where I'm coming from.Okay.

Have a go

Well, Jesus was the actual "creator" of the universe, but he did it under God's direction.

Hmm news to me, but i'll go along with it

Not true. Perfect beings can have needs and wants. His want is for all of his spirit children (everybody who has ever had a body and some who haven't) to progress and to become like him. His perfect love for everybody makes it so he wants us to grow and progress and to become as like him as possible.

But if he is perfect then all his needs and wants would be fulfilled, without him ever needing to need or want them, they would just be. He is described as being wholly perfect, not perfect at a certain thing, but wholly perfect. Perfection is the best that one can be.
So he is, that which nothing greater can be thought. If he needs or wants something, that means he is lacking in some way. If he wasn't then he would have no need to want, as it would just be. Seeing that he is lacking in some way, then I can think of something greater than him, a being that is not lacking in any way.
Ok, so now you may say, 'But we are what he wants "to grow and progress" so it is not his imperfection that makes him need or want, it is ours.' But, if he was perfect, the only beings/things he could create would also be perfect. If they weren't, then his creating skill was not perfect and therefore he is not perfect(can think of a being greater: one with a perfect creating ability).Now you may say "But, God created us with free will so we can choose between good and evil." But how could we get that choice if he was perfect? Obviously if he was perfect, then he would only create good. If not, i can think of greater being, one which only creates good. So you may say "He did not create evil, the devil did," but you would be forgetting that God created the devil. The devil was once an angel, who had a choice, and chose to become evil. But if God was perfect, then there would(like said above)be no choice, the only possible would be good. Seeing as there is evil, God must of made evil possible and therefore, he created evil. I could round this off by saying, "God therefore is not perfect as he created evil, and i can think of being greater, one which did not create evil", but ignoring this, there is still another way to show that god is not perfect. Seeing as god created good and evil, he must of created the choice that we all make, so his needs or/and wants for us to be like him are self made and therefore it is his own lacking, of perfection, that causes his needs and wants. So he is lacking perfection, and therefore is not perfect.

Yep. And I don't really understand why you think a perfect being can't have a need or a want.

Shown above

Any questions with that one? I'll take these section by section, for ease of debating.

No questions, but an opposing argument for you to deal with. Yeah thanks, it does make it debating easier, focussing on one topic at a time.