God did not create the Universe

[Primordial Annihilator]

There is nothing in science that rules out god or a creator.

Nothing.

Science asks questions religion cannot answer...and likewise the reverse is true...thats why you need both.

 

[PolyHedral]

You think there is math and experimentation out there that empirically concludes the universe spawned itself into existence?

That is utterly flawed a belief...science cannot look beyond initial inflation...before time began...locked as the observer is within the universe I have already illustrated repeatedly.

No, there's math that shows the universe is not made of cheese, which is what was asked for. And, you can show that there is something external to what we think of as the universe, though doing so pretty much requires knowing cutting-edge physics.

 

[Skeptisch]

There is nothing in science that rules out god or a creator.

“The laws of nature God”, exists. Any other God is hiding unexplainably. But we can always manufacture another one and believe until s/he becomes the “truth”. This has been done throughout history and is not about to change very soon.

 

[newhope101]

I think science is good at explaining the here and now but falls down in explaining the past. I think the reason why big bang, TOE etc are theoretical is partly because the start points have not been proven. Big bang is great untill you reach the singularity which is dificult to explain, let alone prove. Likewise abiogenesis.

Any theory that cannot explain its start point, strikes me as a good guess that falls apart and remains theoretical, particularly when one needs to explain how it started. The beginning point is the most important. Without it, you may as well say God just created it..and dispense with any explanation of "How".

The universe was once thought to have always been. Now, with red shift, we know this universe had a beginning. ie.. it was created/made and was not there before. Science agrees here on a biblical assertion.

Was there nothingness prior to the big bang? Is our universe one of many? Is our universe just the latest in a series of universes? These questions are the subjects of theoretical hypothesis. No matter how far back you want to go it is hard to conceive there was once nothingingness and matter came into existence. How did a singularity come about? What was there before it, if anything?

A higher intelligence, ie God, provides an answer that is at least as good as any scientific hypothesis thus far...for me anyway.

 

[Skeptisch]

Was there nothingness prior to the big bang? Is our universe one of many? Is our universe just the latest in a series of universes? How did a singularity come about? What was there before it, if anything?

Have you read “The Grand Design”?

Also, when a neuroscientist, a philosopher, a biologist and a hardnosed intellectual take time to write books that, in layperson’s language, answer many of the deep questions we struggle with, shouldn’t we have the courtesy and curiosity to read these books before we make up our own deities or believe in those someone else made up?

Yes some of us use their quotes a lot but always in context and because we agree with what is said. Paraphrasing would diminish meaning.

The four guys are Harris, Dennett, Dawkins and Hitchens. Hopefully I can animate someone to read these guys.

 

[newhope101]

There is nothing in science that rules out god or a creator.

Nothing.

Science asks questions religion cannot answer...and likewise the reverse is true...thats why you need both.

I agree. Well stated.

Skeptish Quote:Have you read “The Grand Design”?

Also, when a neuroscientist, a philosopher, a biologist and a hardnosed intellectual take time to write books that, in layperson’s language, answer many of the deep questions we struggle with, shouldn’t we have the courtesy and curiosity to read these books before we make up our own deities or believe in those someone else made up?

Yes some of us use their quotes a lot but always in context and because we agree with what is said. Paraphrasing would diminish meaning.

The four guys are Harris, Dennett, Dawkins and Hitchens. Hopefully I can animate someone to read these guys.


Skeptisch...I really do not get what you are insinuating here. Are you trying to refute my comments by insinuating all the quoted books and persons you mentioned are purporting any more than the theoretical with or without their own opinions?

Surely, you are not suggesting that any such documentation is factual in relation to the creation of the universe and the fact that God did or did not create it, which is the subject matter.

As I said the singularity is hotly debated by theoretical explanations of staged expansion, inflation, multi dimentions etc. Agreeing with one particular researchers work over another, is no different than my believing Mathew, Mark the disciples over your researchers, when it comes to the creation of the universe.

OMG..I had a sqiuzz at Wiki re the grand design.

The book concludes with the statement that only some universes of the multiple universes (or multiverse) support life forms. We, of course, are located in one of those universes. The laws of nature that are required for life forms to exist appear in some universes by pure chance, Hawking and Mlodinow explain (see Anthropic Principle

Skep..you do understand that this stuff is theoretical...don't you???????

 

[PolyHedral]

A higher intelligence, ie God, provides an answer that is at least as good as any scientific hypothesis thus far...for me anyway.

So why do you believe you're right, as opposed to just guessing?

 

[Skeptisch]

Agreeing with one particular researchers work over another, is no different than my believing Mathew, Mark the disciples over your researchers, when it comes to the creation of the universe.

Are Mark and Mathew the researchers you believe in?

 

[outhouse]

Modern physics leaves no place for God in the creation of the Universe, Stephen Hawking has concluded in his new book the grand design.

“Did the Universe need a creator?” The answer he gives is a resounding “no”.
[URL]http://prince.org/msg/105/343191[/URL]

and its still a no,

with creation being banned in almost all schools in the USA, the creation myth will die a slow death in my opinion

 

[Madhuri]

I don't understand how one can know that the universe could exist without God, without knowing whether or not God exists. The knowledge that scientists today hold is limited. There are still many unanswered questions about the how the universe came to be. Especially when it comes to 'before' the Big Bang. So how can we know if God is necessary or not?

If there is a God from which all things originate, then the universe could not have come about independently.

And as usual, scientists are not arguing against the concept of a Creator; they argue against Christianity. Therefore their conclusion is not that a God is unnecessary, but that the Christian God is unnecessary.

 

[outhouse]

Especially when it comes to 'before' the Big Bang. So how can we know if God is necessary or not?

for thousands of years man thought the earth was 6000 years old

then common thought was no its a old earth.

then it was darwin is a nut, now only evolution is taught in schools

evolution of mankind is just nature doing its thing and evolution of planets is the same way, its just nature of the universe.

look at how far we have come with evolution in general, its been a nightmare to deal with religions over known facts

when getting specific about what happened 14 billion years ago in a place we cannot go to and investigate, you cant blame science.

ever since homo sapiens have been on the planet they have always made/imagined religions and gods and spirits for the things we do not know, it has slowed down progress towards the real facts. Its a hurdle man does not need. The first 100 years homo sapiens were on the planet I garantee you that they had some form of spirit or religion or god probably handed down from neaderthal's maybe not.

Therefore their conclusion is not that a God is unnecessary, but that the Christian God is unnecessary

if this were to be true, "IF" it would be because they are the ones that put up the largest fight against them.

I happen to feel science does not look at gods or myths to explain abiogenesis or evolution of the universe becuase the thought again "to me" seem absurd to think nature needs to be created.

Gods would not just blow smoke and have planets appear. we know how they are formed. In the future im sure we will know more about 14 billion years back, we already know a little and what they do know does not include myths in my opinion

 

[outhouse]

now we face evolution of the universe the same way we faced and fought the origins of mankind.

were at our infancy of breaking away from ancient myths that are brought upon us by geographic location alone

of course humbly in my opinion

 

[zenzero]

Friend S,

Modern physics leaves no place for God in the creation of the Universe, Stephen Hawking has concluded in his new book the grand design.

First kindly find out which or what is that *god* that he rejects????
So far have yet to find every human agreeing to any particular qualities that they understand is a suitable label for the word *god*.
If personal understanding is taken where every form or no-form that are seen or not-seen are PARTS of *god*.Now, being a part [including Hawking/you/me/etc.] cannot discuss the *WHOLE* that includes us.
It is a simple till one is part the whole is unknown and if the part separates then it is not a part of the whole and then such a whole cannot speak of the whole that is only through imagination. A part being smaller than the whole cannot fathom the whole by being a separate whole. The only way is by BEING!

Love & rgds

 

[Skeptisch]

First kindly find out which or what is that *god* that he rejects????

Zenzero, you are a gentlemen blogger.
In fairness, all Hawking and Mlodinow say is that God is not needed for the creation of the universe.

This is what I posted earlier:

“Participants of open forums often know very little about each other. That might be a good thing, or maybe not?

We can post with the handicap, or maybe advantage of believing that most things have, or will eventually have, a natural explanation or solution. We can believe that God is equal to the laws of nature and if these laws don’t tell us how the universe works, nothing will.

To get back to the OP, if God equals the laws of nature then, naturally, Hawing and Mlodinow are wrong concluding that God is not needed to create a universe. But that is probably not the God they had in mind in 'The Grand Design'.

Without jumping on a semantic merry go around, would you or anyone else care telling us about your God?”

 

[newhope101]

This thread states that God did not create the universe. In my mind God is a deity that knows the laws of physics and can use this knowlege to enact and enforce his will. God does not perform magic. Rather, it is his use of physical laws that we have yet to understand, that God uses. So when I talk about a God, I am talking about a being with intelect, not an airy fairy God that basically does nothing, just is.

It does not matter if Hawkins works his theory out because the big bang is not the beginning of the story. What created the singularilty? What caused it to go into motion and begin expansion? What was before that time? Where did all the matter within the singularity come from? Why and how did a singularity form? Is this universe the first or just the most recent?

There is recent research that has illustrated that the Alpha varies in different parts of the universe. If proven there will be huge implications for astro physics. Big bang theory is based on 2 assumptions, the universality of physical laws and the cosmological principle. The Lamba CDM model only works to 10(-15) seconds and no current model satisfies the prior time.

So basically, I feel that anyone is at liberty to suggest it was their God that 'caused' such physics to go into motion, and that is as good an argument as any at the moment. Who claims to understand the entire workings of the universe...only God.

 

[PolyHedral]

What created the singularilty? What caused it to go into motion and begin expansion? What was before that time? Where did all the matter within the singularity come from? Why and how did a singularity form? Is this universe the first or just the most recent?

All nonsensical questions. Time only "starts" existing at the singularity, and so it doesn't make sense to ask what is before it, or what caused it.

 

[Storm]

All nonsensical questions. Time only "starts" existing at the singularity, and so it doesn't make sense to ask what is before it, or what caused it.

They're not nonsensical questions, we just don't have the answers.

As for time, that always struck me a nonsensical answer. If there wasn't some form of time for the singularity to operate in, it couldn't have changed.

 

[outhouse]

First kindly find out which or what is that *god* that he rejects????

in my opinion ALL the myths.

We can believe that God is equal to the laws of nature

problem is we can see nature working and it does, in my opinion you cannot see a myth do anything as we have all noticed.

enact and enforce his will

does this not go all the way back to the origins of religion??????????????? we make up things with our minds using imagination to explain away all the things in which we do not know

Big bang theory

I agree that there is more to know about the big bang theory. Ive never been happy with it anyway. When one wants to imagine about a creator one would have to start wondering , "well what size is this being" for him to pull all this magic out of no where. it comes down to science or magic. Is this not make believe or reality?????


for a thousand years people were not intellegent enough to figure out the sun did not revolve around the earth, due to religion holding it back. Lets not make the same mistake again with what we do not know

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

All nonsensical questions. Time only "starts" existing at the singularity, and so it doesn't make sense to ask what is before it, or what caused it.

That is a truly limited view...time btw is a measurement of the change of the state of system...if something else preceded the universe, something that entropied or changed states, then time could have existed before the universe suddenly erupted into 'reality'.
What doesn't makes sense at all is a refusal even to consider that what causes the initial emergence of the inflationary universe is of any importance.

Because in my view the rammifications are enormous, whatever the method the universe came into being.
if we knew how and why, we could answer some of the most profound religious and metaphysical questions ever asked.

 

[Midnight Pete]

But the universe would still be here if there was nobody to love and nothing to hope for.

Would a tree falling in the forest make a sound if there was no one around to hear it?