God Forgives...

[Brian2]

As a non believer in god or gods it surprises me how many times i hear the phrase "god forgives". It seems to me to be a cop out from morality. Essentially saying i can get away with whatever i want and god will forgive me...

An example...

On the previous (now defunct) forum i frequented there was a guy. Those members here who frequented that old place will know who i mean, I'm not mentioning any names...

He was a manager or supervisor at the place he worked, it seems his job gave him huge amounts of time to chat online, he was one if the most prolific posters. Then suddenly he disappeared, his posting stopped. Approximately 6 weeks later he was back to copious posting.

I asked where he had been, the story he gave was.

I lost my job for stealing internet bandwidth. I know it was wrong and i prayed to god to forgive my crime. God forgave me.

He got a new job, and guess what. He began immediately stealing the company's bandwidth.

My question is why?

Why would he assume his god forgives theft?

Why would he assume it is ok for him to repeat his crime because his god forgave him?

Forgiveness is the easy thing to get then we are to live as people in the covenant and show works worthy of repentance. That is the hard part and nobody lives up to that 100%.
God can still know our failings and forgive us however even if we find it hard to forgive ourselves.
When God accepted us into the Covenant He knew what we are like and knows all the sins we will ever commit and still accepts us.
There are some people who no doubt abuse the whole thing and God knows that also.

 

[ChristineM]

Forgiveness is the easy thing to get then we are to live as people in the covenant and show works worthy of repentance. That is the hard part and nobody lives up to that 100%.
God can still know our failings and forgive us however even if we find it hard to forgive ourselves.
When God accepted us into the Covenant He knew what we are like and knows all the sins we will ever commit and still accepts us.
There are some people who no doubt abuse the whole thing and God knows that also.

The example i gave the guy just did not care because he was sure god had forgive him.

There are many more examples of similar behaviour

 

[Vinayaka]

No, if Karma is true you suffer the consequences whether you want to or not.
In Christianity God is the judge and determines each person's Karma or forgives them of that Karma.
If people want to escape the Karma cycle is that because of fear of consequences?
Do you think it is a trap that Dharmic religions say that we all eventually make it and so some people would just cruise from one life to the next thinking that eventually they will get there? Then of course they might find that there is no other life to be born into.
Is it that Buddha was sinless and so had no Karma to fulfil or is gaining enlightenment a ticket out of the rebirth cycle?

Yes, re karma, that's what I said. People want to escape moksha because they get to the point in their soul's evolution that this place has nothing left to offer them. Yes enlightenment is the ticket out. Enlightenment happens because all karmas are resolved.

Some folks do say that since the destiny of all souls is moksha, why bother? But as in the OP example, it's a false understanding. Once a soul matures. it can see through that one as well.

 

[sun rise]

Forgiveness to me means understanding the motivations of the person. It does not mean forgetting. So to me it's not a "get out of jail free" card.

 

[sun rise]

The example i gave the guy just did not care because he was sure god had forgive him.

There are many more examples of similar behaviour

That kind of behavior is appropriate, cute even, in dogs. In people? Not so much.

 

[Link]

God only easily forgives sins done out of ignorance and soon after we repent, and don't repeat while we know. These are guaranteed. The rest of sins, for all we know, may destroy our hearts and make them dark enough to reject the Authority of God's light and his chosen ones. Sins destroy souls, they take on a living reality within in the realm of souls, and can easily turn our hearts forever blind, deaf, and dumb if not defeated.

 

[Augustus]

I thought this was why the mafia were big into Catholicism. Death bed repentance.

I'd say it had far more to do with the fact that they originated with by 19th C Sicilians and thus Catholicism was a big part of their culture.

It's not like they sat around discussing theology and deciding on the best faith for the discerning gangster (and if they did, Catholicism would not be the best choice anyway)

 

[RestlessSoul]

It has always been a great flaw in many religions.
You can be a murderer and a rapist but if you find Jesus in the last hours of your life and repent all your sins - you get into heaven.
BUT
If you are a well behaved, charitable atheist, then you can't get in.

You can repent, as a Catholic, “between the stirrup and the ground”. You read Brighton Rock? It’s one of the themes, along with the true nature of evil. Well worth a read if you don’t know the novel. Good film too, with a very young Richard Attenborough, but they changed the ending because they didn’t think cinema audiences could cope with Graham Greene’s bleak last act.

Anyway, it’s a high risk strategy, trying to outwit God. Repentance is meaningless if it’s not sincere.

Who told you charitable atheists couldn’t get into heaven? I really don’t think that’s part of any mainstream theology today, could be wrong though. But it sounds more like something an atheist might extrapolate from a very selective reading of scripture. Has a religious person told you that? Genuine question

 

[Secret Chief]

I'd say it had far more to do with the fact that they originated with by 19th C Sicilians and thus Catholicism was a big part of their culture.

It's not like they sat around discussing theology and deciding on the best faith for the discerning gangster (and if they did, Catholicism would not be the best choice anyway)

It was only a flippant comment based on my limited expertise (ie watching Scorcese films )

 

[ChristineM]

It was only a flippant comment based on my limited expertise (ie watching Scorcese films )

I understood that...

 

[Secret Chief]

An after death is just fine. I know my component atoms will have a great time when I'm gone

Have you seen about Ricky Gervais would like to be eaten by lions after his death, to "give something back to the animals" ? Not sure he'll get his wish though.

It seems a jolly good idea to me, your atoms have to go somewhere, so why not put them to an immediate benefit of one's choice? I quite fancy becoming part of a snow leopard, although of course some of me would be snow leopard poo. Still, swings and roundabouts.

 

[Altfish]

Who told you charitable atheists couldn’t get into heaven? I really don’t think that’s part of any mainstream theology today, could be wrong though. But it sounds more like something an atheist might extrapolate from a very selective reading of scripture. Has a religious person told you that? Genuine question

John 14:6 Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. ... To be accepted into heaven you must admit you're a sinner, ask for forgiveness, admit that Jesus died for your sins and rose again, and ask Him to have a relationship with you

 

[URAVIP2ME]

As a non believer in god or gods it surprises me how many times i hear the phrase "god forgives". It seems to me to be a cop out from morality. Essentially saying i can get away with whatever i want and god will forgive me...
An example...
On the previous (now defunct) forum i frequented there was a guy. Those members here who frequented that old place will know who i mean, I'm not mentioning any names...
He was a manager or supervisor at the place he worked, it seems his job gave him huge amounts of time to chat online, he was one if the most prolific posters. Then suddenly he disappeared, his posting stopped. Approximately 6 weeks later he was back to copious posting.
I asked where he had been, the story he gave was.
I lost my job for stealing internet bandwidth. I know it was wrong and i prayed to god to forgive my crime. God forgave me.
He got a new job, and guess what. He began immediately stealing the company's bandwidth.
My question is why?
Why would he assume his god forgives theft?
Why would he assume it is ok for him to repeat his crime because his god forgave him?

Yes, I too hear people say they are forgiven.... however, the God of the Bible does forgive but only if one repents
- 2 Peter 3:9
The type of people described at Hebrews 6:4-6 are Not forgiven.
Those who commit the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32 are Not forgiven.
So, by ignoring Scripture those people establish their own morality or immoral life style deceiving themselves.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

John 14:6 Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. ... To be accepted into heaven you must admit you're a sinner, ask for forgiveness, admit that Jesus died for your sins and rose again, and ask Him to have a relationship with you

..... and also to be 'accepted to live on earth' one must admit sinning and thus repent - 2 Peter 3:9
Eternal life on earth just as Jesus promised that humble meek people will inherit the earth - Psalms 37:9-11
So, besides heaven for some, the majority of people are offered everlasting life on earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.

 

[ChristineM]

Have you seen about Ricky Gervais would like to be eaten by lions after his death, to "give something back to the animals" ? Not sure he'll get his wish though.View attachment 52034
It seems a jolly good idea to me, your atoms have to go somewhere, so why not put them to an immediate benefit of one's choice? I quite fancy becoming part of a snow leopard, although of course some of me would be snow leopard poo. Still, swings and roundabouts.

Sounds like fun.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

............... When God accepted us into the Covenant He knew what we are like and knows all the sins we will ever commit and still accepts us..................

I can agree that when God accepted us....He knew what we are like....
However, because God gifted Adam with free-will choices then to me God chooses Not to know all.....
This to me is why the accepted people of Revelation 17:9 are: un-numbered.
If God knows all the sins we will ever commit then that 'great crowd' of saved people would be: numbered.
So, the choice is ours to freely make to obey or disobey. That free choice God leaves up to everyone.

 

[Martin]

Seeking forgiveness can look rather self-indulgent. Why not just take responsibility, and live with the guilt?

 

[InChrist]

As a non believer in god or gods it surprises me how many times i hear the phrase "god forgives". It seems to me to be a cop out from morality. Essentially saying i can get away with whatever i want and god will forgive me...

An example...

On the previous (now defunct) forum i frequented there was a guy. Those members here who frequented that old place will know who i mean, I'm not mentioning any names...

He was a manager or supervisor at the place he worked, it seems his job gave him huge amounts of time to chat online, he was one if the most prolific posters. Then suddenly he disappeared, his posting stopped. Approximately 6 weeks later he was back to copious posting.

I asked where he had been, the story he gave was.

I lost my job for stealing internet bandwidth. I know it was wrong and i prayed to god to forgive my crime. God forgave me.

He got a new job, and guess what. He began immediately stealing the company's bandwidth.

My question is why?

Why would he assume his god forgives theft?

Why would he assume it is ok for him to repeat his crime because his god forgave him?

Well, if you have spent any time reading the NT. I think you would see that God takes sin, repentance and forgiveness quite seriously. Since God sees and judges a person’s heart, thoughts and motives it’s not as if someone can fool God by asking for forgiveness, yet purposely continuing to repeat the same offense over and over. They are only deluding themselves and at some point will reap the consequences.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think God’s forgiveness is conditional upon sincerity of motive. If the sinner is sincerely sorry and makes attempts to correct his problem but fails, I believe God will still forgive him as long as he is sincerely trying to change his ways.

But if he has no intention whatsoever of changing then I wouldn’t rely upon God’s forgiveness for there will be none.

 

[Glaurung]

As a non believer in god or gods it surprises me how many times i hear the phrase "god forgives". It seems to me to be a cop out from morality. Essentially saying i can get away with whatever i want and god will forgive me.

It is not that simple. There is no forgiveness without repentance and repentance demands contrition. To count on the mercy of God without a sincere effort to keep the commandments is the sin of presumption. Mercy is for those who stumble not for those who continue in willful sin.

I lost my job for stealing internet bandwidth. I know it was wrong and i prayed to god to forgive my crime. God forgave me.

He got a new job, and guess what. He began immediately stealing the company's bandwidth.

I perceive this as a flaw of American Protestantism, which in practice is often reduced to gospel of cheap grace. The idea that you can be certain of divine forgiveness without sacramental absolution (which presumes a firm purpose to amend your ways) is alien to the majority of the world's Christians.

Why would he assume it is ok for him to repeat his crime because his god forgave him?

It isn't though. Yes, the gospel does present a god who is quick to mercy. But it also warns of a god who will demand from us an account of our lives. Indeed, for every idle word. What you are describing is called presumption which as I said before is itself a sin. A sin that I would argue is innate to the theology certain brands of Protestantism, that is, the 'once saved always saved' kind.

You can be a murderer and a rapist but if you find Jesus in the last hours of your life and repent all your sins - you get into heaven.

The main spiritual danger of sin is that it hardens the heart away from prevenient grace. Without which conversion is impossible.

It is likely that a person who lives a life of obstinate sin will be too hardened to convert at death. More likely they will die cursing God. But even if God does grant the obstinate sinner the means to convert in their last hours, they will nonetheless have much to atone for in the purgatorial fires.

If you are a well behaved, charitable atheist, then you can't get in.

Salvation is not gained by being a nice person, it is gained by cooperation with grace. And to hold to atheism until your dying breath is to die uncooperative with grace. You cannot cooperate with God while denying his existence.