God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

[Link]

could have chosen another path

We can't do actions other than the one set in the future. So it's impossible that we could've chosen another path.

 

[Trailblazer]

We can't do actions other than the one set in the future. So it's impossible that we could've chosen another path.

We will choose what God knows we will choose but before we chose we could have chosen another action.
If we had chosen another action God would have known that we would choose that action.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's a pretty confused rendition of what you thought I said..

Is the stone defined as "too heavy to lift" or not??

..this is really such a simple argument. First of all, neither of us really "gets to define omnipotent".

I beg to differ .. I am the one who is saying that G-d is omnipotent i.e. able to do all things
..and I'm telling you that I am not claiming that statements such as making square circles
or lifting something "too heavy to lift" are included. They are contradictory,and people
are trying to be smart, whereas they only seek to deceive.

Can G-d kill Himself if He's Eternal? .. and more stupid questions.

 

[Link]

before we chose we could have chosen another action.

You are repeating at this point. Again, it's impossible that we could've done any other action that the one in the future or the one God knows.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are repeating at this point. Again, it's impossible that we could've done any other action that the one in the future or the one God knows.

We will do what God knows we will do because God knows what we will do, and God is infallible so God cannot be wrong.
But BEFORE we did x, we could have chosen to do y or z. If we had chosen y or z, God would have known we would choose y or z.

What God knows is dependent upon what God knows we will choose, from all the available options.

 

[Link]

But BEFORE we did x, we could have chosen to do y or z.

Not if the action x already exists in the future or God's knowledge.

 

[muhammad_isa]

We can't do actions other than the one set in the future. So it's impossible that we could've chosen another path.

It's only impossible, because G-d knows what we will choose.
It's not impossible as in, we couldn't have chosen it if we had wanted too.

The point has been made many times over in this thread, that the choice that we will make is contingent
i.e. dependent on what G-d knows we want to choose

It is not that we MUST choose what G-d knows (as in forced to). If we had wanted to choose something else, then G-d knows it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not if the action x already exists in the future or God's knowledge.

Why? G-d knows that you will choose x of your own free-will, while you only perceive that choice
as happening later.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not if the action x already exists in the future or God's knowledge.

What reason do you have to believe that action x already exists in the future or in God's knowledge?
Do you know what God knows?

 

[Link]

What reason do you have to believe that action x already exists in the future or in God's knowledge?
Do you know what God knows?

I don't believe the future is known or exists. But I'm talking about the model in the OP or that knowledge of our actions already exists right now.

 

[Link]

Why? G-d knows that you will choose x of your own free-will, while you only perceive that choice
as happening later.

This is circular reasoning. It's pure asserting the conclusion without addressing the problem.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is circular reasoning. It's pure asserting the conclusion without addressing the problem.

There is no problem .. other than that of your perception of time as being absolute.
You assume that it is not possible for G-d to know what we will choose in the future, but I
believe that G-d transcends time .. is the author of time in our universe.

That means, while we perceive the future as not yet happening, G-d perceives that it has.
..much like we perceive the past as having happened.

 

[Link]

There is no problem .. other than that of your perception of time as being absolute.
You assume that it is not possible for G-d to know what we will choose in the future, but I
believe that G-d transcends time .. is the author of time in our universe.

That means, while we perceive the future as not yet happening, G-d perceives that it has.
..much like we perceive the past as having happened.

We both believe God transcends time. The difference is you model this to imply past, present, future all exist. I don't. Your model, has theological problems.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe the future is known or exists. But I'm talking about the model in the OP or that knowledge of our actions already exists right now.

I believe that our future actions are known by God right now, but the future does not exist yet. Only the present exists.

 

[Link]

I believe that our future actions are known by God right now, but the future does not exist yet. Only the present exists.

This goes against the 4d explanation in the OP. But why do you assume God knows the future actions?

 

[Trailblazer]

This goes against the 4d explanation in the OP.

I did not write the OP and I don't go by what is in the 4d explanation.

But why do you assume God knows the future actions?

I do not assume that, I believe it. I believe it because Baha'u'llah wrote it.

Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This foreknowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.

Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library

A selection of passages from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, compiled and translated by Shoghi Effendi, including extracts from Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, the Kitáb-i-Íqán, and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, as well as other Tablets.

www.bahai.org

 

[Link]

I did not write the OP and I don't go by what is in the 4d explanation.

I do not assume that, I believe it. I believe it because Baha'u'llah wrote it.

Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This foreknowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.

Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library

A selection of passages from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, compiled and translated by Shoghi Effendi, including extracts from Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, the Kitáb-i-Íqán, and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, as well as other Tablets.

www.bahai.org

Most religious scholars say the same. However you should research belief in Bada historically. Read hadiths about it from Ahlulbayt (a). They also comment on verses on Quran.

I think both Quran and hadiths are clear God doesn't know the future in absolute terms.

 

[Copernicus]

Is the stone defined as "too heavy to lift" or not??

No, Muhammad. Absolutely not. "Too heavy to lift" is not an inherent property of the stone. It is a property that is relative to the agent that does the lifting. The stone is defined as an object with an inherent mass that has a weight relative to a gravitational force.

I beg to differ .. I am the one who is saying that G-d is omnipotent i.e. able to do all things..and I'm telling you that I am not claiming that statements such as making square circles or lifting something "too heavy to lift" are included. They are contradictory,and people are trying to be smart, whereas they only seek to deceive.

Circles and squares are geometric shapes with defined properties. Gods are much more complex entities that are defined by religious communities, not individuals such as yourself. I would be surprised if your God and your religion were unique to just yourself, and "omnipotent" is not a word that you are free to define willy-nilly as you please. It is defined by common usage, not individual usage. You can look it up in dictionaries. Nobody other than yourself is trying to deceive you.

Can G-d kill Himself if He's Eternal? .. and more stupid questions.

You can ask all the stupid questions you want, but to what end? Obviously, God would not be eternal if he could really be killed. He would be mortal, which contradicts the way he is defined by most believers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

"Too heavy to lift" is not an inherent property of the stone..

You said "God is powerless to make a stone to heavy to lift"..

Can G-d lift stones of any weight? Yes.
Can we lift stones of any weight? No.

..so it is INDEED the property of the stone that causes the problem i.e. "a stone that is too heavy to lift"
It's like a double negative .. that's all you have .. sly tricks.

Being an advocate of the devil is a serious business. The devil isn't interested in your welfare.
Honour amongst thieves is a false myth. When the chips are down..

 

[Ajax]

There is no problem .. other than that of your perception of time as being absolute.
You assume that it is not possible for G-d to know what we will choose in the future, but I
believe that G-d transcends time .. is the author of time in our universe.

That means, while we perceive the future as not yet happening, G-d perceives that it has.
..much like we perceive the past as having happened.

Absolute nonsense.. God's existence can not be proven. It 's a belief, not knowledge. Furthermore theists like you who from one hand pronounce that humans can not possibly know God, on the other hand they supposedly know that he is eternal, infinite, perfect, omniscient, infallible, omnipotent, just, can see past, present and future simultaneously and consequently he knows all our future actions. We all know that time depends on the reference frame of the observer. But when God supposedly gave prophecies for the future to human prophets and mentioned days and years he obviously meant Earth time. The same when God knows, as you admit, our future and our actions. He has to refer to our time, and the future we have; there is no other way. Therefore your excuse of God being in or out of time is completely wrong, irrelevant and philosophers accept that (also as per your link).
In short, you as anyone else, including the writers of scriptures, know nothing about God; you just provide us with invalid and hypothesized excuses, as well as circular reasoning, because you want your cake intact and eat it, i.e you want an omniscient, infallible God who knows all our future actions and choices, plus you want free will....

Why? G-d knows that you will choose x of your own free-will, while you only perceive that choice
as happening later.

Your thoughts are in a mess. God knows that we will choose, but we only perceive that it will happen later...

You don't even understand that you just shot you own foot with what you wrote. If G-d knows that you will choose x (even through your own "free-will"), whether you had/have/will have free will for choosing or not, becomes completely irrelevant and unnecessary, as long as you will choose what God knows.
Enough said.