God... He or She?

[YoursTrue]

I know that Jesus cannot be the Messiah who would come in the latter days because Jesus never promised to return to earth.
Rather, Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was No More in the world. John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11

The OT prophesied what the Messiah would do when He came in the messianic age, and the NT prophesied what Christ would do when He returns. Since Baha'u'llah has already fulfilled these prophecies Jesus cannot be the Messiah who would come in the latter days.

Jesus said more than that, but I can go into that another time. Yet you said you believe Bahaullah is the return Messiah or something like that, right? Who told you that? Surely not the Bible.

 

[YoursTrue]

I know that Jesus cannot be the Messiah who would come in the latter days because Jesus never promised to return to earth.
Rather, Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was No More in the world. John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11

The OT prophesied what the Messiah would do when He came in the messianic age, and the NT prophesied what Christ would do when He returns. Since Baha'u'llah has already fulfilled these prophecies Jesus cannot be the Messiah who would come in the latter days.

Jesus said more than that, but I can go into that another time. Yet you said you believe Bahaullah is the return Messiah or something like that, right? Who told you that? Surely not the Bible.
He is in part what the Bible says about Jesus return, Matthew 24:3 "Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?”

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus said more than that, but I can go into that another time. Yet you said you believe Bahaullah is the return Messiah or something like that, right? Who told you that? Surely not the Bible.

Nobody told me that, I figured it out myself.
The Bible shows that Jesus cannot be the Messiah of the latter days.
The Bible prophecies show that Baha'ullah was the Messiah/return of Christ.

Thief in the Night by William Sears

1844: Convergence in Prophecy for Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith

The Coming of the Glory: How the Hebrew Scriptures Reveal the Plan of God

 

[Trailblazer]

He is in part what the Bible says about Jesus return, Matthew 24:3 "Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?”

Please note that in the following verses, Jesus did not say that He was going to return.
What Jesus said was that many would come claiming to be Christ and they would deceive many people.
Jesus said that because He knew that would happen and it has happened since many men have come claiming to be Christ.

Matthew 24 KJV

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Baha'u'llah did not come in the name of Christ. He came with another name, a new name, just as the Bible says would happen.

The Bible says Christ would return with a new name, so we know he would not be called Jesus.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The new name means that the return of Christ would be another man. It would not be Jesus.

 

[YoursTrue]

Nobody told me that, I figured it out myself.
The Bible shows that Jesus cannot be the Messiah of the latter days.
The Bible prophecies show that Baha'ullah was the Messiah/return of Christ.

Thief in the Night by William Sears

1844: Convergence in Prophecy for Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith

The Coming of the Glory: How the Hebrew Scriptures Reveal the Plan of God

I believe Jesus. Plus I don't know what you mean when you say that Jesus cannot be the Messiah of the latter days. Please do explain in your own words, if you can, thank you.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe Jesus. Plus I don't know what you mean when you say that Jesus cannot be the Messiah of the latter days. Please do explain in your own words, if you can, thank you.

Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus never claimed to be a king, and Jesus never said He was coming back to judge the earth and establish an earthly Kingdom

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus never claimed to be a king, and Jesus never said He was coming back to judge the earth and establish an earthly Kingdom

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

According to many, Jesus referred to himself as "Son of man." "Sixty-nine times in the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus calls himself (the) "Son of man", a Greek expression which in its Aramaic (and Hebrew) background could be an oblique way of indicating the speaker's own self " Do you believe that he was referring to himself as Son of man?
Also, when Jesus was on the earth in the flesh he prayed to his heavenly Father, asking that his kingdom come to the earth. Let's go back to Son of man though. Do you believe or think Jesus was referring to himself when he used the expression "Son of man"? (That quote above is from Wikipedia)

 

[YoursTrue]

Please note that in the following verses, Jesus did not say that He was going to return.
What Jesus said was that many would come claiming to be Christ and they would deceive many people.
Jesus said that because He knew that would happen and it has happened since many men have come claiming to be Christ.

Matthew 24 KJV

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Baha'u'llah did not come in the name of Christ. He came with another name, a new name, just as the Bible says would happen.

The Bible says Christ would return with a new name, so we know he would not be called Jesus.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.A new

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The new name means that the return of Christ would be another man. It would not be Jesus.

A new name does not mean a different person, by the way. But if you think it does -- that's up to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

According to many, Jesus referred to himself as "Son of man." "Sixty-nine times in the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus calls himself (the) "Son of man", a Greek expression which in its Aramaic (and Hebrew) background could be an oblique way of indicating the speaker's own self " Do you believe that he was referring to himself as Son of man?
Also, when Jesus was on the earth in the flesh he prayed to his heavenly Father, asking that his kingdom come to the earth. Let's go back to Son of man though. Do you believe or think Jesus was referring to himself when he used the expression "Son of man"? (That quote above is from Wikipedia)

Jesus was the Son of man, and Baha'u'llah referred to Jesus as the Son of Man in the following passage.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[Trailblazer]

A new name does not mean a different person, by the way. But if you think it does -- that's up to you.

That's true, but why would Jesus change His name? The Bible does not say that Jesus would change His name.

If Jesus returned with a new name, how would anyone know it was Jesus?

 

[YoursTrue]

That's true, but why would Jesus change His name? The Bible does not say that Jesus would change His name.

If Jesus returned with a new name, how would anyone know it was Jesus?

You'd have to understand the Bible with God's spirit to understand that. Perhaps later we can discuss it a bit. G'night.

 

[Trailblazer]

Also, when Jesus was on the earth in the flesh he prayed to his heavenly Father, asking that his kingdom come to the earth.

Mathew 6 KJV

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Thy kingdom come refers to God's kingdom on earth. Jesus said nothing about bringing a kingdom to earth.
That is a Christian belief based solely upon wishful thinking. It is not based upon the Bible.

 

[YoursTrue]

Mathew 6 KJV

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Thy kingdom come refers to God's kingdom on earth. Jesus said nothing about bringing a kingdom to earth.
That is a Christian belief based solely upon wishful thinking. It is not based upon the Bible.

Me oh my. He said (Matthew 6), "
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

 

[1213]

What does "he fathered" mean in this context?...

In this context it means to cause birth of something.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In this context it means to cause birth of something.

And only fathers cause births?

Which birth(s) are you talking about? Adam? Jesus? Someone else?

 

[YoursTrue]

That's true, but why would Jesus change His name? The Bible does not say that Jesus would change His name.

If Jesus returned with a new name, how would anyone know it was Jesus?

the same way his disciples knew it was him when he came to them after the resurrection. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[YoursTrue]

Mathew 6 KJV

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Thy kingdom come refers to God's kingdom on earth. Jesus said nothing about bringing a kingdom to earth.
That is a Christian belief based solely upon wishful thinking. It is not based upon the Bible.

Many so-called Christians think when they die they're going to live in heaven and probably never come back to the earth anyway. So your statement, frankly, doesn't make sense.

 

[YoursTrue]

Mathew 6 KJV

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Thy kingdom come refers to God's kingdom on earth. Jesus said nothing about bringing a kingdom to earth.
That is a Christian belief based solely upon wishful thinking. It is not based upon the Bible.

Did he want his disciples to pray for God's kingdom to come?

 

[Trailblazer]

Me oh my. He said (Matthew 6), "
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

AGAIN, Thy kingdom come refers to God's kingdom on earth. Jesus said nothing about bringing a kingdom to earth.
That is a Christian belief based solely upon wishful thinking. It is not based upon the Bible.

Yes, it is a Baha'i belief that God's kingdom will come to earth and we often refer to that as the new world order. This new world order will be built by humans who are graciously assisted by God.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, 7 and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6- 7

 

[Trailblazer]

the same way his disciples knew it was him when he came to them after the resurrection. Thanks for pointing that out.

No, if Jesus returned with a new name the people of this world would not know it was Jesus in 'the same way' that the disciples knew.

I am not saying I believe that Jesus rose bodily from the grave, but for the same of this discussion let's assume He did.
The disciples would have recognized Jesus since Jesus would have looked and talked the same as He did before He was crucified.

Even if Jesus returned to earth in the latter days, nobody knew what Jesus looked like and anyone can read the NT and try to talk like Jesus, so if Jesus returned today, how do you think anyone could know it was really Jesus?