outhouse
Atheistically
here is a picture of Yahweh and Asherah circa 800 BC, which shows he is Male.
https://sawiggins.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/kuntilletajrud.jpg
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God = He ?
- Thread starter Rex
- Start date
here is a picture of Yahweh and Asherah circa 800 BC, which shows he is Male.
https://sawiggins.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/kuntilletajrud.jpg
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I like the brown one. She has the best breasts of all the mothers...Rumor has it that way back in the olden days, God originally had a wife. If this rumor is true, God must be masculine because the wife is feminine. His so called wife is mentioned numerous times in Jewish scripture. She makes more than just a mere cameo appearance.
Asherah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ASHERAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com
“These Asherah figurines are made of clay and thousands of them have been dug up by Archaeologists in Israel. Note she clutches her breasts to say I am El Shaddai, the Breasted One.” Asherah Figures; Slide 86
Nor am I debating it. Here is what you stated:
You specifically refer to how the "god concept mythology evolved", not just the nature of a particular mythology. To be a little more clear, imagine I was arguing about the nature of early Mesopotamian religion. I can do so by describing it as it existed (at least so far as we know), but that this is quite distinct from the origins of the concepts underlying the nature of Mesopotamian religion. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by "how the god concepts mythology evolved".
outhouse
Atheistically
Did the mythology evolve from displaced Canaanite to the multiple cultures of Israelites? Yes it did. El was not unique to Israelites nor even Canaanites. But El and Baal were significant deities in Canaanite mythology and then in Israelite mythology.
Did these concepts evolve in Israelite cultures? We know they did.
Did this family concept last in Israelite cultures? No it did not.
Canaanite religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mythology
In the Baal cycle, Ba'al Hadad is challenged by and defeats Yam, using two magical weapons (called "Driver" and "Chaser") made for him by Kothar-wa-Khasis. Afterward, with the help of Athirat and Anat, Ba'al persuades El to allow him a palace
Athirat, "walker of the sea", Mother Goddess, wife of El (also known as Elat and after the Bronze Age as Asherah)
Anat, virgin goddess of war and strife, sister and putative mate of Ba'al Hadad
Baalat or Baalit, the wife or female counterpart of Baal (also Belili)
Dagon, god of crop fertility and grain, father of Ba'al Hadad
So what we see here in Canaanite mythology, is the worship of a family of deities, they had sexual orientation male and female, and family positions as humans.
And these are the people who became Israelites which places this below into context a bit more clear.
History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved[77] and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.
I agree.
Actually we don't, and what you say above testifies to that possibility. Perhaps the problem is your use of "evolve". If is highly unlikely that the early Israelite pantheon was the product of the early Israelites (at lest wholly) but rather was mostly borrowed. To say that the concepts evolved there suggests that they began there and grew out from there, and that we do not know. We do know that they existed there.
Also, the concepts of "god" which you seemed to refer to by "god concepts mythology" suggests that we know something about the origins of the conception of god mythology among the human species, which took place long before writing was invented.
You keep describing the nature of the mythologies. I haven't disputed what you said about the Israelite, Mesopotamian, and/or Near-Eastern mythologies. Rather, it is that this description is not a conceptual evolution but a historical one. In other words, I am not disagreeing with your description of the history and nature of the Israelite mythology. I am disagreeing that we can speak to the conceptual origins whence this mythology evolved.
roger1440
I do stuff
When I Google “God” and search the images, God usually is depicted as some old geezer who appears to be a fugitive from the barber shop. When I do the same for “Goddess” most of the pictures are of some young scantily clad hot chick with large breasts. What’s up with that? None of the goddess’s look like granny from The Beverly Hillbillies.
outhouse
Atheistically
evolve in context = change
Agreed whole hearted.
Evolution here does not mean abiogenesis in context. It signifies change.
The Early Israelites were multi cultural and had diverse beliefs based on these pantheons of preexisting traditions. What united them was the belief in this family.
These traditions factually changed, they evolved. And every time they were ran over by a civilization these traditions changed more dramatically then peaceful time. While still polytheistic we start seeing changes in henotheism and different levels of monolatrism in the different peoples.
With monotheisms abiogenesis starting with King Josiahs reforms, we see quite the change from 1200 BC and adherence to different mythological traditions by the time we see the birth of monotheism.
In the beginning El was still "The Father" deity. By 800 Bc we see some communities giving Yahweh all Els attributes including Els wife Asdherah. I don't think we even lost all of those loyal to El for a few hundred years before the NT.
outhouse
Atheistically
Ah. Normally, outside of biology, "evolve" implies direction (e.g., if I refer to how the notion of integrals evolved I mean how Liebniz & Newton first founded the integral calculus and how other mathematicians developed this initial and inferior version into a better one; if refer to how our concepts about mental illness have evolved again I would be implying that we know more and know better what it is, etc.). I guess the term threw me.
There are a lot of things that united them. I would argue that family became more important, and certainly was integral within early Israelite culture, but that the farther back in time you go the more you find the basis for belief in deities tied to natural phenomena like thunder, the sky, stars, seasons, nature, etc.
But that pre-dates the period in question, so it is sort of a moot point.
outhouse
Atheistically
It did go in a direction though. Polytheism to monotheism in the overall picture.
A family of deities, into a male warrior deity, that much later evolved into a deity you described by vernacular of later orthodox Judaism and Christianity as a sexless deity.
True! However, your statement only concerned how the concept evolved in terms of polytheism. Also, it would be a mistake to think that this was anything but aberrant. Virtually all monotheistic religions developed out of Judaism, from Islam to the "monotheism" of the Roman emperor Julian. Cross-culturally, the concept we refer to by the word "religion" didn't exist in a very comparable form. The word "religion" in English (and synonymous terms in German, French, Italian, Spanish, Russian, etc.) refers mostly a system of beliefs (theological, spiritual, etc.). This conception would be unrecognizable for the Greeks, Babylonians, Romans, Norse, Goths, Hindus (before the 17th century at the earliest), etc. The deities and supernatural entities we find in every culture throughout history were not integrated into a doctrine or belief system as in Judaism (and subsequently the various Christianities and other religions that grew out of Judaism directly or indirectly). Religion, to the extent it existed as something distinct from other sociocultural practices like marriage, taxes, trials, etc., was fundamentally about practice.
Theology could not exist in such societies (we've to look no farther than Plato to see how even for so great a philosopher "theology" was seriously hampered by contemporary religious practice), and doctrine didn't develop because it was at best pointless and likely nonsensical. Deities and other entities throughout human history seem always to have some basis as explanatory models, and as they explained distinct phenomena this mean distinct deities (and other supernatural entities).
I don't know if I'd agree about the "male warrior deity" part. Sure, we find aspects similar to deities of war, but it is hard to have henotheistic culture or even a patron deity without aspects of a warrior deity. Consider, for example, the patron goddess of classical Athens (which was not henotheistic but polytheistic). She was associated with wisdom and much else, but was also a goddess of war. Patron deities were deities that protected a city-state in the ancient world or a given community within a larger empire. As patron deities, part of their role was that of protector.
outhouse
Atheistically
Part of Yahweh's fame that ended him up as a primary deity was due to his warrior status. Its also probably why some took Asherah away from El and gave her to Yahweh.
In war time the polytheistic multi cultural Jews would rally around him to help protect the people. What was unique was how many stayed loyal during the Babylonian exile after failure. Karen Armstrong goes into detail and highlights this as well.
Fully understood that he had more attributes then warrior, but he Is flat named Yahweh Sabaoth in places.
Even the drawing I showed from 800 BC depicts a warrior.
In peaceful times the other deities tended to flourish as he was not needed.
Agreed even if there was a few before I believe, one in Egypt.
out of the Sun, he was at the beginning, that is where all monotheist religions occur
What is your evidence for this?
outhouse
Atheistically
Ah. Thank you! Well, let's just say that her view is not the only one, and is probably in the minority (arguably very much in the minority).
b.finton
In the Unity of Faith
I've been absent and need to read what I've missed, but a thought came to mind this morning.
Contact with the Infinite One is, by definition, ineffable in the finite. There are no words, there is no imagery that can convey the fullness and the subtleties of the experience. There can never be.
The good news is that the experience, itself, is possible.
There is a path to that experience. That path leads to a door.
The door opens, or it does not.
b.
Contact with the Infinite One is, by definition, ineffable in the finite. There are no words, there is no imagery that can convey the fullness and the subtleties of the experience. There can never be.
The good news is that the experience, itself, is possible.
There is a path to that experience. That path leads to a door.
The door opens, or it does not.
b.