Norman
Defender of Truth
Hi Katzpur :
I’m really busy at the moment and so have very little time, but can take a second to comment.
1) Regarding henotheism.
My area of historical interest is fairly narrow since I am mainly interested in the earliest and most authentic Judeo-Christianity in the peri-C.E. eras so I am not particularly knowledgeable regarding other religious movements or modern christian theories of the various modern Christian movements.
Early Judaism and Christianity believed in and described beings that shared some characteristics with God but who were not to be worshipped as I’ve shown in post # 24. I used Adam as an example of a being who became “as one of us”. Later normative Judaism lost prophetic gifts, lost temple worship; lost their priesthood and became Rabbinic Judaism where doctrines were created by, adopted by and spread to other Jews by their Rabbinic leaders. These two "judaisms" are two different religions having different base characteristics.
For example, While ancient vertical (prophetic) Judaism knew a great deal about God and pre-creation heavens and conditions there, the later horizontal (rabbinical) Judaism was ignorant of these things and discouraged such knowledge. For example, the Talmud tells us that Rabbinic Judaism forbade any further study of or transmission of truths concerning pre-creation doctrines, thus, this knowledge which was common in vertical Judaism (prophetic Judaism), would have been lost in a single generation to the followers of Horizontal (rabbinic Judaism) as texts were culled and the traditions and knowledge was not passed on to the next generation. The Rabbinic prohibition is in Gen Rabba, and this one reads : IT is forbidden to inquire what existed before creation, as Moses distinctly tells us (Deut. 4. 32): 'Ask now of the days that are past which were before thee, since the day God created man upon earth.' Thus the scope of inquiry is limited to the time since the Creation.–(Gen. Rabba 1)
Eminent Rabbis of "Rabbinic Judaism" who issued prohibitions against inquiring regarding conditions that existed in heaven before the creation, themselves created barriers to learning many, many of the most profoundly important truths concerning God; concerning his plan and his motives and conditions that allow mortality to make much more sense. Such rabbinic prohibitions against certain areas of knowledge left the latter religion having the same name, more intellectually anemic and more ignorant about certain basic principles. It is no wonder then that the earliest textual traditions that discuss and describe conditions before creation are relatively unknown among Jews who inherited such prohibitions to knowledge about such themes. Texts containing such pre-creation themes and descriptions would have been culled from Jewish tradition and any “canon” they might have used. It is just such prohibitions to knowledge that reminds me of Jesus’ trying to teach the Jews regarding conditions leading to ignorance of God.
Thus, even by Jesus time, Jesus berates the Jewish leaders for creating conditions where important religious principles and knowledge was not taught and passed on. Jesus said : "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." Luke 11:52
Multiple other texts describe this condition and it’s affect among the Jews. For example, the Gospel of Thomas also refers to this same condemnation of Jewish leaders, saying : “Jesus said, “The Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to….” THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS vs 39;
Messianic Jews themselves were aware of this systematic problem and describe it in almost the same words : “They hold back the drink of knowledge from those that thirst, and for their thirst they give them vinegar to drink, that they might observe their error, behaving madly at their festivals and getting caught in their nets.” Dead Sea Scrolls 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q Col. 12:10-11
This tendency to religious abuse and apostasy from authentic doctrines was not new to the rabbinic religion, but was always a tendency for all mankind from the earliest recorded periods. For example, Moses is told by God that “...when the times of exposure come near and punishment arises through kings who (though) sharing their crimes yet punish them, then they themselves will be divided as to the truth. Consequently the word was fulfilled that they will avoid justice and approach iniquity; and they will pollute the house of their worship with the customs of the nations; and they will play the harlot after foreign gods. For they will not follow the truth of God, (Testament of Moses 5:1-6)
It was not merely Jesus who described the Jewish temple as having become “a den of thieves."( Mark 11:17), but the reformation espoused by Qumran Jews themselves is quite scathing in its condemnation of the Jewish priestly faction that administered in the Corrupted Jewish temple before it was destroyed by the Romans.
“Hear these words, O Israel. 29 At first our fathers dwelt as aliens in Egypt and they were delivered from there, 30 and received the Law of life, which they did not keep, which you also have transgressed after them. 31 then land was given to you for a possession in the land of Zion; but you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. 32 And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “ (prophets, temple, priesthood, knowledge, etc, etc.) Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;
These sorts of abuse and doctrinal changes by Sadducees and Pharisees and later by rabbis as they rose to greater power and influence and created the rabbinic religion that also used the name “Judaism”, may be part of why Jesus railed against certain of the Jews who “hold the tradition of men” and “reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” Mark 7:7-9
My point is, the Jewish history tells us that Prophets revealed religion, which people tend to apostatize from. Other prophets corrected and restored the doctrines from which others apostatized from. Then people apostatized from that restoration. This process repeated itself over and over. The later Rabbinic Judaism called itself “Judaism”, but it was, nonetheless, an apostate religion having different doctrines. This tendency for ALL individuals to apostatize from specific truths may be one of the important base truths mankind needs to learn.
3) Regarding the multiple textual witnesses of individuals who saw God versus the verses that says “no man hath seen God”.
I think this verse represents a lacuna like that between verses 2 and 3 of Acts 14. If this is correct, then the motive and mechanism underlying this lacuna may be similar to the Jewish Masoretes who edited Gen 18:22 to read differently than the original text. For example, in all the three Massoretic Rubrics in Orient 1379, 2349 and 2365 in each of which it is emphatically stated that the original reading was “but the Lord stood yet before Abraham” only that the text was altered. (c.f. the St. Petersburg Codex Ezek. VIII:17 and Zech II:12).
The Jewish Massoretes who altered the original text felt the original reading was simply too anthropomorphic and degrading to God (especially given legal idiom of “standing before” another in judgment for a wrong doing...). Thus they changed the text from God standing before Abraham, to a form where Abraham stood before God. The early Synagogal prayers (2,12, apos constitutions, etc.) of the Christians speak of God, showing Abraham the Christ in Christs role as the God of the old testament.
It is clear that the Judeo-Christian texts display their belief that God could and was seen of some men at certain times. For example, the entire genre of early Christian ascension literature is based on a prophet seeing God. For example, the ascension of Isaiah reads : “And Isaiah himself has said, ‘I see more than Moses the prophet.’ Moses said, There is no man who can see the Lord and live.’ But Isaiah has said, ‘I have seen the Lord, and behold I am alive.’ Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah . 3:9
Early Jewish Enochian literature is similar in its textual witness that certain prophets saw God. Enoch is a good example. The text describes this prophet being taken into heaven and sees both God and his son and asks the angel with him who the person is that is both with and like the Father. : “1 At that place, I saw the One to whom belongs the “chief of days.” (“he who precedes time,” “The beginning of days”, “he who is of primordial days,” “the antecedent of time”). And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. 2 And I asked the one–from among the angels–who was going with me, and who had revealed to me all the secrets regarding the One who was born of human beings, “Who is this, and from whence is he who is going as the prototype of the Before-Time (i.e. should be translated - ...from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?”). 3 And he answered me and said to me, “This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells. And he will open all the hidden storerooms; for the Lord of the Spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the Spirits in eternal uprightness. 4 This Son of Man whom you have seen is the One who would remove the Kings and the mighty ones from their comfortable seats, and the strong ones from their thrones. He shall loosen the reins of the strong and crush the teeth of the sinners. 5 He shall depose the kings from their thrones and kingdoms. For they do not extol and glorify him, and neither do they obey him, the source of their kingship. 1st Enoch 46:1-6;
Whether their beliefs were correct or not, it is clear that the Early Judeo-Christian literature describes their belief in a God who had been seen and that he appeared in an anthropomorphic form.
Sorry I didn’t have time for more comment katzpur. I simply don't have much time now.
Clear
δρσιειω
Norman: Hi Clear, a post only allows for 1000 words, I would suggest that you keep your responses to that limit, so someone can respond to your post. You posted a lot of information which is excellent, however, sometimes that is over kill. Again, just a suggestion.
