God-Inspired Scripture

[viole]

Hi Viole,

I believe God starts the book of his Word with the power of his Word. Through his Word he creates all that is created. The spirit of God brings things into being by the authority and life that is in his Word. This is confirmed by Colossians 1:16,'For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:'

Have you ever wondered why God gives us the Genesis account? I think it's because all faith rests on God being the creator. The whole of creation is divided into two by this premise alone. There are sheep and there are goats.

The wording of Genesis is worth a close look. Many commentators have noticed how verse one is separated from verse two. This is because of the language used in verse two, 'And the earth was [became] without form, and void', is not in keeping with God's original creation.

There is then a sequence of events which help to establish the use of days, weeks and of time generally. The week is the time period for this heaven and earth. The framework of the Bible is caught between two verses. In Genesis 1:1 we have, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth'. In Revelation 21: 1 it says, And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.'

Why was there no more sea? Because sea is seen as a symbol of death!

So if we begin to think that there is more in this Genesis account than meets the eye, we might approach it with a bit more respect.
What about the sun, moon and stars appearing on day four? Well, if each day is seen as a thousand years, there is something significant about the appearance of these heavenly bodies at this stage in the unveiling of God's will and purpose. Doesn't Abraham receive the promise that his descendents, or seed, will 'be as the stars'? Is it not the coming Messiah who is given the description 'Sun of Righteousness' (Malachi 4:2)?

These verses demand our attention. Let's not forget that when Jesus told the parable of the Sower he described the pathway as the man whose heart is hardened and unreceptive. Are we to be like that?

Hej Redemptionsong,

i am not arguing about the time scale between events. I am arguing about their ordering.
There is no way, for what it is has been established today, that the earth and water predate the stars.

It is like reading a book that says at page one that Napoleon was an ancestor of Julius Ceasar. My confidence about its veracity stops right there, even though I might enjoy it as a book of fiction.

I think page one of the Bible is sufficient evidence that the book has been written by men. Men with a very limited knowledge about the Universe. And has not been insipred by the alleged creator of said Universe. Who should know how He created things and in which sequence.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Redemptionsong]

What you are missing is Jesus' take on the Law and how it relates to what the Law actually says. All you have done above is simply to ignore the many verses that contradict what you have said. For example, tell us how exactly does one "fulfill the Law"? Ever stop to think about that?

Also, note that your Galatians 5:18 quote actually undermines what you have claimed. So, you really can't have it both ways-- either a Jew is under the Law in its entirety or they're not. Assuming you're not Jewish, you are not under the Law, btw.

Understanding how the law is fulfilled is a fundamental concern to anyone wishing to understanding the New Testament. It means to complete, and go beyond, all that is instructed in the moral law. Which, in turn, means the same as walking by the power of God's spirit in love.

As Jeremiah pointed out, the fulfilment of the law is effectively the same as writing the law on a person's heart. That is what love is. It's the moral law in its completion.
The old law is only 'ended', or left behind, to the extent that love is applied. This is because love goes even further than the law would ever go. The law is still God's law, and it is still good, but it cannot bring a person to perfection. Only the spirit of God, placing the law in a person's heart, can bring a person to perfection. And this perfection is not his own to boast about - it's the perfection of God in Christ.

Scripture tells us something else that is very interesting. Jesus Christ is the mediator between the Old and New Testaments. He is brought up under the law, yet he summarises the law to just two commandments - to love God, and to love your neighbour. Following his own baptism, Jesus demonstrates this love as he prepares his followers for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. [See Hebrews 9:15-17]

For the Church, the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is a starting point. The body is born (begotten of the spirit) and is given the responsibility of witnessing to the truth of Christ and of spreading his kingdom on earth.

As a Gentile, and believer in Jesus Christ, I know that I am not 'under the law' - when I walk by the spirit of God. I also know that God's law is still effectual in bringing others to a knowledge of sin.

Abandoning the law would lead to all kinds of difficulties in a world where God's kingdom is only partially established. Freedom without love is no different to chaos, which means that law is necessary in every nation and under every government. It's the job of law to provide justice. It's the responsibility of those who form the body of Christ to show love and forgiveness so that it's not necessary to meter out justice - either now, or when the final judgment arrives.

 

[viole]

And before Sun, apparently.

Yup. A second generation star, by the way.

Ciao

- viole

 

[atanu]

But natural reason does not provide illumination of the spiritual realm.

Yes. So please be patient and wait for the illumination.

 

[metis]

Understanding how the law is fulfilled is a fundamental concern to anyone wishing to understanding the New Testament. It means to complete, and go beyond, all that is instructed by the moral law. Which, in turn, means the same as walking by the power of God's spirit in love.

As Jeremiah pointed out, the fulfilment of the law is effectively the same as writing the law on a person's heart. That is what love is. It's the moral law in its completion.
The old law is only 'ended', or left behind, to the extent that love is applied. This is because love goes even further than the law would ever go. The law is still God's law, and it is still good, but it cannot bring a person to perfection. Only the spirit of God, placing the law in a person's heart, can bring a person to perfection. And this perfection is not his own to boast about - it's the perfection of God in Christ.

Scripture tells us something else that is very interesting. Jesus Christ is the mediator between the Old and New Testaments. He is brought up under the law, yet he reduces the law to just two commandments - to love God, and to love your neighbour. Following his own baptism, Jesus demonstrates this love as he prepares his followers for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. [See Hebrews 9:15-17]

For the Church, the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is a starting point. The body is born (begotten of the spirit) and is given the responsibility of witnessing to the truth of Christ and of spreading his kingdom on earth.

As a Gentile, and believer in Jesus Christ, I know that I am not 'under the law' - when I walk by the spirit of God. I also know that God's law is still effectual in bringing others to a knowledge of sin.

Abandoning the law would lead to all kinds of difficulties in a world where God's kingdom is only partially established. Freedom without love is no different to chaos, which means that law is necessary in every nation and under every government. It's the job of law to provide justice. It's the responsibility of those who form the body of Christ to show love and forgiveness so that it's not necessary to meter out justice - either now, or when the final judgment arrives.

There are 613 Laws as found in Torah, so it is virtually and logically impossible to narrow them down to just two. See: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm The Tanakh states any supposed prophet who denies any of the Law is a "false prophet", thus going by what you post above would make Jesus just that.

Now, there's another angle that one could consider, even though it's quite theologically weak, but you haven't found it yet, so maybe try again.

 

[atanu]

'Yea, man is bowed, And mortal brought low; brought low is the pride of the haughty. And the Lord of Hosts is exalted by judgment, the Holy God proved holy by retribution.'

Two questions:

What it is like to be bowed?

Do you know that God who proves His writ through retributions? A God that creates a world and beings to prove his writ by meting out retributions?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I think page one of the Bible is sufficient evidence that the book has been written by men. Men with a very limited knowledge about the Universe. And has not been insipred by the alleged creator of said Universe. Who should know how He created things and in which sequence.

You would think God would know.
Here's one explanation that accounts for the luminaries on Day 4. 'When the clouds and mists are dispelled from its surface, the seas confined within their boundaries, and the first vegetation springs up; then the sky is cleared up, the sun, moon, and stars appear and assume their natural functions, marking days and nights, seasons and years; and God makes or appoints them, the sun to rule the day, and the moon to rule the night.' [Speaker's Commentary]
It's also worth noting that the word used in verse 16 of the two great lights is 'made', not 'created'.

The five books of Moses have been pored over by some of the greatest minds known to man. I have to say, they were not so quick to dismiss these words from Genesis!

 

[Redemptionsong]

There are 613 Laws as found in Torah, so it is virtually and logically impossible to narrow them down to just two.

For a start, the 613 mitzvot were not even mentioned until a homily of the third century CE, when there were said to be 365 negative, and 248 positive precepts in the Torah. So clearly, Jesus would not have been referring to all 613!

In Mark's Gospel Jesus tells us the two most important commandments. First he recites the Shema (Deut.6:4) then he quotes from Leviticus 19:18.
Mark 12:28-33 says, 'And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man durst ask him any question.'

In providing us with the two greatest commandments, Jesus was also summarising the decalogue delivered to Moses and found in Exodus 20:1-14, and in Deuteronomy 5:6-18.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The Tanakh states any supposed prophet who denies any of the Law is a "false prophet", thus going by what you post above would make Jesus just that.

Since I've stated unambiguously that I believe Jesus was obedient under the law, maybe you would like to say why you do not think Jesus was obedient.

 

[metis]

For a start, the 613 mitzvot were not even mentioned until a homily of the third century CE, when there were said to be 365 negative, and 248 positive precepts in the Torah. So clearly, Jesus would not have been referring to all 613!...

I had a feeling you wouldn't actually check out the link that lists where the 613 are found in Torah. Therefore, what you are in essence saying is that Jesus would not have known about Torah.

It's very obvious you pretty know next to nothing about the Mosaiic Law, so I'm just wasting time with you.

 

[metis]

Since I've stated unambiguously that I believe Jesus was obedient under the law, maybe you would like to say why you do not think Jesus was obedient.

I did in post #170.

 

[metis]

In providing us with the two greatest commandments, Jesus was also summarising the decalogue delivered to Moses and found in Exodus 20:1-14, and in Deuteronomy 5:6-18.

Oops, I forgot to comment on this.

Notice that Jesus says that they are the two greatest Commandments, not the only Commandments that a Jew must observe. For example, the Sabbath Laws were considered mandated by God in Exodus whereas He threatened death to any who broke them in regards to the harvesting of manna on Shabbat.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's very obvious you pretty know next to nothing about the Mosaiic Law, so I'm just wasting time with you.

Some people take a painfully long time to recognize the self evident.

 

[metis]

Some people take a painfully long time to recognize the self evident.

Ya, I guess that's just one of my weaknesses.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Do you know that God who proves His writ through retributions? A God that creates a world and beings to prove his writ by meting out retributions?

There would have been no need for judgment were it not for disobedience. The wages of sin is death.

 

[paarsurrey]

There would have been no need for judgment were it not for disobedience. The wages of sin is death.

No, it is a wrong concept. Even the innocent die.
Regards

 

[atanu]

There would have been no need for judgment were it not for disobedience. The wages of sin is death.

Death will overtake all and it actually is not a punishment in my view.

But you have not answered my question. I asked "Do you know that God who proves his writ through retributions?"

I also asked what it was like to be bowed? Why should God reveal the correct scripture to you and your group only? What you did to deserve this boon from God?

(IMO, a mind settled in divinity can only judge as to what is divine and what is not).

 

[atanu]

I suggest you look into this a bit more closely. The Hindu scriptures are not 'one scripture', with a common or consistent theme.
The Qur'an was written down over a period of 23 years, and cannot be compared to the Bible. It's only link to prophetic legitimacy are its biblical illustrations, many of which are inaccurate.

The reason that the Bible stands above all other books in its authority is that it has proved itself to be the work of the Holy Spirit. It also points to the one, Jesus Christ, who in his life and works proves himself to be our Lord and Saviour. I believe His spirit governs the course of history, and everything that has happened, and will happen, is under His control.

In a nutshell, the reasons I cannot accept the Qur'an as prophecy are:
Muhammad was not an Israelite. It's clear from the Bible that God had a 'chosen' people who became guardians of his Word. The literary prophets were all Israelites. This makes the claims of Muhammad either fraudulant or erroneous.

Is there anything of Holy Spirit in these claims?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I had a feeling you wouldn't actually check out the link that lists where the 613 are found in Torah. Therefore, what you are in essence saying is that Jesus would not have known about Torah.

It's very obvious you pretty know next to nothing about the Mosaiic Law, so I'm just wasting time with you.

I'm listening to your arguments, and responding to the points you make in the time I have available. Hopefully I will get round to covering them all.

Your attempt to make this personal through insult does nothing to lift your argument. You know little about me or my educational background, so we'll keep it that way and concentrate on the issues.

What we have before us in the Bible is the essence of all we need to know about the Mosaic law. If I have to refer to the Talmud, I have the volumes beside me at home.

 

[Redemptionsong]

No, it is a wrong concept. Even the innocent die.
Regards

You can blame Adam and Eve for that. We are all cut off as a result of the original sin. It affects all mankind - from the newborn child to elderly.
Romans 3:9, 'What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:' (Psalms 14, 53)