God is 1 vs God is 3

[Aamer]

I've been studying the New Testament and it is becoming clear to me that the trinity is not a biblical concept. It actually resembles a pagan Roman concept. You will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible, nor is it implied. In fact, the New Testament seems to confirm the theme of the old Jewish books. That God is one.

Now, when a scribe asked Jesus what is the FIRST COMMANDMENT, what did Jesus say?

Mark:12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Now let's analyze this situation. This is a SCRIBE! A scribe is a learned man. Scribes were rare and the highly educated ones in those days. So why is a scribe asking Jesus a question that any 8 year old Jewish boy could have answered a thousand years earlier? Because he wanted to make sure Jesus was not claiming to be God and that he was still teaching the most important Jewish teaching of all. That God is ONE!

And what did Jesus say?
That God is indeed ONE.
Jesus said the very first commandment of all is that God is ONE. But if you ask most modern day Christians what THEIR first commandment is. They will tell you God is THREE!

Worshipping anyone other than God (Jesus included) is breaking the most important commandment of all. I have yet to find any evidence that Jesus asked to be worshipped. In fact, he himself worshipped the creator. So anyone who believes in the trinity and worships Jesus, please explain what verses or teachings you are using to justify this belief.

 

[Pegg]

I've been studying the New Testament and it is becoming clear to me that the trinity is not a biblical concept. It actually resembles a pagan Roman concept. You will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible, nor is it implied. In fact, the New Testament seems to confirm the theme of the old Jewish books. That God is one.

its refreshing to see a muslim looking into the bible to see what it says.




There have always been christian groups throughout the ages who have rejected the churches trinity teaching for that reason. Scripture should form the basis of their teachings, but they have preferred to base their teachings on writings outside the bible which is why they have many non biblical teachings and practices.

 

[Skwim]

Yeah, the trinity was voted into being at the Council of Nicea in 325 A. D..

 

[Aamer]

its refreshing to see a muslim looking into the bible to see what it says.




There have always been christian groups throughout the ages who have rejected the churches trinity teaching for that reason. Scripture should form the basis of their teachings, but they have preferred to base their teachings on writings outside the bible which is why they have many non biblical teachings and practices.

Muslims have the same problem as they use Hadith to form their laws. Amazing how history continues to repeat itself and humans continue to repeat the mistakes of their predecessors. If Muslims just followed the Quran and not man made teachings, we wouldn't have all this oppression of women, violence and extreme and unnatural rules and mindset. And I find reading the other scriptures of Christians and Jews not only interesting but also beneficial to understand the big picture. All three of these religions are from the same God. I read somewhere that less than 1% of Muslims have read the Quran in a language they understand. I'm guessing the statistics are similar for Christians and the Bible.

 

[Pegg]

Muslims have the same problem as they use Hadith to form their laws. Amazing how history continues to repeat itself and humans continue to repeat the mistakes of their predecessors. If Muslims just followed the Quran and not man made teachings, we wouldn't have all this oppression of women, violence and extreme and unnatural rules and mindset. And I find reading the other scriptures of Christians and Jews not only interesting but also beneficial to understand the big picture. All three of these religions are from the same God. I read somewhere that less than 1% of Muslims have read the Quran in a language they understand. I'm guessing the statistics are similar for Christians and the Bible.

i agree with you, its the additional man-made laws which do injury in so many ways. Jesus condemned the jewish religious leaders for exactly the same thing...they were adding their own laws to the Torah. Rather then just follow the rules as laid out by Moses, the jewish leaders added multitudes of additional rules that they themselves invented....

Matthew 15:3 In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition?

Matthew 15:9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.....And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition.

Mark 7:8 Letting go the commandment of God, YOU hold fast the tradition of men.”


When people add their own views to the word of God, the word of God gets covered up and people start teaching their own personal views rather then Gods views. But if we strip back all the tripe added in, the word of God can be found and it is refreshing, upbuilding, encouraging and well worth the effort to find.

 

[Father Heathen]

God is quantum; one, infinity, and none. :bonk:

 

[dawny0826]

God is quantum; one, infinity, and none. :bonk:

:tsk: Naughty boy.

The Trinity doesn't negate the concept that God is ONE. I don't understand why people have such a hard time wrapping their brains around that.

God is LIMITLESS, but we have ONE God, who is our heavenly father. He became one of us, to show us what it is to live a godly life and then died for us, a literal and symbolic death to cover our blemishes and to atone for our sin (because we are incapable of getting our **** together) and then provided us a piece of himself through the Holy Spirit, who dwells within each believer, guides, directs and helps with discernment.

One, limitless God.

All of the aforementioned is in the bible. People choose to interpret the nature of God as they wish.

 

[uberrobonomicon4000]

I've been studying the New Testament and it is becoming clear to me that the trinity is not a biblical concept. It actually resembles a pagan Roman concept. You will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible, nor is it implied. In fact, the New Testament seems to confirm the theme of the old Jewish books. That God is one.

The trinity whether it is or isn't a biblical concept is very much present in the bible. I will provide some examples. Jesus said: On earth as it is in heaven. He constantly preached about his father and the holy spirit which are one. The son, the father and the holy spirit (his mother which conceived him).

Now, when a scribe asked Jesus what is the FIRST COMMANDMENT, what did Jesus say?

Mark:12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Now let's analyze this situation. This is a SCRIBE! A scribe is a learned man. Scribes were rare and the highly educated ones in those days. So why is a scribe asking Jesus a question that any 8 year old Jewish boy could have answered a thousand years earlier? Because he wanted to make sure Jesus was not claiming to be God and that he was still teaching the most important Jewish teaching of all. That God is ONE!

Scribes were not always highly educated. Sometimes the way they learned was by making prints (or reprints) of scripture.

And what did Jesus say?
That God is indeed ONE.
Jesus said the very first commandment of all is that God is ONE. But if you ask most modern day Christians what THEIR first commandment is. They will tell you God is THREE!

Three is just a unison of the father, son and holy spirit. Which you can't have life without.

Worshipping anyone other than God (Jesus included) is breaking the most important commandment of all. I have yet to find any evidence that Jesus asked to be worshipped. In fact, he himself worshipped the creator. So anyone who believes in the trinity and worships Jesus, please explain what verses or teachings you are using to justify this belief.

Jesus was never intended or ment to be worshiped.
It is his teachings that people are aspire to follow.

 

[Father Heathen]

But if we strip back all the tripe added in

All the way back to the early Tanakh, or is your tripe excused? If so, how convenient.

 

[arhys]

The word 'booger' doesn't exist in the Bible, either. Semantics will get you nowhere.

1. Old Testament: Elohim is plural.

2. New Testament: Matthew 3:16–17. And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

3. Matthew 28:19. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

4. 2 Corinthians 13:14.The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[Madhuri]

The concept of Trinity does not contradict the concept of a single God.

This is the same as in Hinduism. God has different aspects. In Christianity, this means God has both form and formlessness. Jesus seems to be the form version of God's nature.

Multiple gods means there is separation. But the trinity concept holds no separation. The trinity is One. It just means different aspects.

 

[atanu]

The Trinity doesn't negate the concept that God is ONE. I don't understand why people have such a hard time wrapping their brains around that.

God is LIMITLESS, but we have ONE God, who is our heavenly father. He became one of us, ----

One, limitless God.

Beautiful and simple.

 

[Rational_Mind]

The concept of Trinity does not contradict the concept of a single God.

This is the same as in Hinduism. God has different aspects. In Christianity, this means God has both form and formlessness. Jesus seems to be the form version of God's nature.

Multiple gods means there is separation. But the trinity concept holds no separation. The trinity is One. It just means different aspects.

Beautiful and simple.

Does that mean that you only worship one God but identify God by different names. If this is not the case I would like to know from both Hinduism and Christian perspectives what exactly is mean't by One God.

My confusion stems from the fact that I have been taught that Christianity and Hinduism are not monotheistic religions. Now whenever you speak with Christians and Hindus they state that there is only one God. So why is there so much confusion? Such confusion is not present in Sikhism or Judaism. The reason I state this is because although Hindus and Christians may feel is it quite straightforward we don't seem to find it that way. We don't disagree with each other on monotheism but when it comes to Christianity and Hinduism why is it that we do not see it as monotheistic, if we were biased, we would only find ourselves to be monotheists.

Currently the way I understand it is that your understanding of God has more than one form. From my preliminary reading of the Bhagavad Gita it shares stories of the past that seem to indicate that so many different forms had Godly powers, and from Wikipedia these are identified as different Gods.

BTW: I am making reference to mainstream Christianity today (Trinity focused).

I don't mean any offense, my questions are directed from the POV that I cannot figure out why all religions want to profess they have one God, although from an outside perspective it seems they may not. I want to know from a Christian and Hinduism point of view what they think is the reason for others having trouble recognizing them as monotheistic religions.

 

[Madhuri]

Rational_Mind, that is not an offensive question but rather a very good one!

I am not sure about Christianity, but in my experience, most people misunderstand Hinduism completely. Yes we only believe in One God. But because this thread is specifically a scriptural debate for Christianity, I will post a reply to you via PM.

 

[F0uad]

I've been studying the New Testament and it is becoming clear to me that the trinity is not a biblical concept. It actually resembles a pagan Roman concept. You will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible, nor is it implied. In fact, the New Testament seems to confirm the theme of the old Jewish books. That God is one.

I do agree on this part but what do you mean by study?

Do you know Greek?
Do you know which Manuscripts you used?
Did you use textual criticism?

What about the gospel of John and the works of Paul?



As for people claiming that the trinity can refer to one god that is just false, tell me how three persons can be one person. How can Jesus(pbuh) be fully human and fully god that is the same as saying that something can be unlimited and limited that the same time it makes no sense.

Let me use a example, a devil comes inside a man does that mean that either the devil took control of the man or that the man is the devil itself? There is still a distinction between the devil and the man.

 

[atanu]

Does that mean that you only worship one God but identify God by different names.---.

God is limitless, beyond our mental powers and words. I think, it is our narrowness that tries to decide that God is such or God is not such. I do not see any problem in God taking a form for some purpose.

 

[Aamer]

The concept of Trinity does not contradict the concept of a single God.

This is the same as in Hinduism. God has different aspects. In Christianity, this means God has both form and formlessness. Jesus seems to be the form version of God's nature.

Multiple gods means there is separation. But the trinity concept holds no separation. The trinity is One. It just means different aspects.

Yes Madhuri. I know where you're coming from. Being from India, I have many Hindi friends. But what you're saying does not comply with the rules of the Abrahamic faiths. The scriptures of the Abrahamic faiths make it VERY CLEAR that God is ONE! There is no idol worship, no praying to man made statues, no associating partners with him. None of that. Look to the sky and pray to your creator. Direct line! No intermediaries. While the Jews and Muslims follow this, the Christians have gone astray from the teachings of our scriptures. The trinity does not fit in with Abrahamic Monotheistic law.

What is the Jewish first commandment?

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

What is the Christian first commandment?

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

What is the Muslim first commandment? The entire theme of Quran is to worship only the creator and ascribe no partners to him. If you don't do this (our purpose in this life), all your good deeds will be worthless. Here is one of many examples in Quran

[13:16] Say: "Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "God." Say: "Have you taken besides Him allies who do not possess for themselves any benefit or harm?" Say: "Is the blind and the seer the same? Or do the darkness and the light equate? Or have they set up partners with God who have created like His creation, so the creations all seemed the same to them?" Say: "God has created all things, and He is the One, the Supreme."

The bottom line is. If you are praying to anyone (be it a dead relative, a dead prophet, a statue, the sun, the moon, assistant gods) other than your creator DIRECTLY, you're in deep s***. Humans were innately gifted to know better. No excuses. This is according to the Abrahamic scriptures. So don't tell me your opinions. Tell me where in the scriptures the trinity is mentioned. I want to know in detail where it says that God, Jesus and the holy spirit are one in the same. And phrase quote Abrahamic books. Not Pagan Roman sources. Peace!

 

[sojourner]

Yeah, the trinity was voted into being at the Council of Nicea in 325 A. D..

Correction: the Trinity was not "voted into being at Nicea." Bone up on your church history, plz.

 

[Madhuri]

So don't tell me your opinions. Tell me where in the scriptures the trinity is mentioned. I want to know in detail where it says that God, Jesus and the holy spirit are one in the same. And phrase quote Abrahamic books. Not Pagan Roman sources. Peace!

We're not talking about what Islam or Judaism says. Christians believe that Jesus came to make corrections and that Islam is completely false. You can't based their beliefs on yours.

My point was to say that according to Trinity doctrine, there is no separation, there is no multiple gods. Trinity believers see the trinity as different aspects of the One. That is how they see it. It has nothing to do with how Islam sees it.

Furthermore, the concept of trinity is an interpretation. What you should be asking is, does the Bible say that Jesus is God? Does the Bible say that the Holy Spirit is God? Because if it says that both are God and that the 'Father' is also God, then you can easily conclude that there is a 'trinity'. However, if nothing of the sort is mentioned in the Bible, then you can easily conclude that the trinity is a poor interpretation.

Thank you.

 

[sojourner]

Worshipping anyone other than God (Jesus included) is breaking the most important commandment of all. I have yet to find any evidence that Jesus asked to be worshipped. In fact, he himself worshipped the creator. So anyone who believes in the trinity and worships Jesus, please explain what verses or teachings you are using to justify this belief.

Not until the Reformation, 1500 years after the Jesus Event, did sola scriptura become the theological and doctrinal "fashion." We have always used, not only biblical teaching, but extra-biblical teaching, as well, to fashion doctrine. Xy is a community endeavor, with a lot of mutuality (Jesus called us, not servants, but brothers).

Since Jesus is fully God, to worship Jesus is to worship God.