otokage007
Well-Known Member
:sarcastic Yes, you did.
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God is an exhaulted Man
- Thread starter Flat Earth Kyle
- Start date
:sarcastic Yes, you did.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
okay, going off the fact that God created Man, (A statement from the Bible)
So sticking to the Bible, no where in the entire Bible does it ever say that God created Man out of nothing. There is no evidence to make that claim and so you have no way to disprove that Man's spirit existed before Man's body existed.
I have references that can support my claim and have previously shared them in previous posts on this thread.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Read the second part of this quote carefully, according to the Bible, at one time back before this world was created, our Father in Heaven once died and was resurrected again. I find that super fascinating.
Another question to bring up would be the meaning of eternal life.
Heavenly Father is an Eternal being, meaning he has no begging and no end, he has always existed. The interesting thing to think about is
God wants us to have eternal life. Meaning we can live together forever with God in heaven. Is it not God's work and his glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of Man? My question is how can we have eternal life (life with no beginning and no end if we have a begging, if God as you say created us from out of nothing.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Our view is that on our own initiative we can't understand ANYTHING about God, as I said!
But that said, we can understand what we are taught by the various Divine Messengers God has sent to humanity to guide and educate us; indeed, it is through Their teachings that we understand God is One, All-loving, and All-merciful (among other positive attributes)!
(We also totally reject, BTW, the LDS view that God was ever a human or that humans could possibly ever become Gods.)
Peace,
Bruce
Is it just you who says that humans can not understand anything about God, or do you have some one with some kind of authority you can quote who says that? Without authority words are dribble.
The only reason there is power in quoting from the Bible is because it was written by Prophets who held priesthood, which was given to them by the laying on of hands either by God, or by another prophet who had the authority to give them that authority. Like Aaron in the old testament and the 12 apostles in the New testament.
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Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Firstborner Men are created and God uncreated so as a statement it makes no sense.[/QUOTE said:
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Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
It sounds like a simple statement to me.
Is your question how did God go from being a man like us into being an all powerful all knowing Father in Heaven?
Is your question how did God go from being a man like us into being an all powerful all knowing Father in Heaven?
no-body
Well-Known Member
Yes, what is the story? Is God a future man who unstuck himself from time with his powers? And if God was once a man why assume he has the best intentions for us?
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Well, lets look at Jesus Christ. Going with Godhead not Trinity,
(if you want to debate Godhead and Trinity go to my other thread)
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/118705-godhead-trinity.html
Before Christ was born he was a spirit. Christ is our spiritual brother. Before we were born we were also spirits. We have always existed, just as God has always existed, other wise we could never have eternal life (life with no beginning and no end.) We are all God's children, that is why we all look like He does, (Adam was made in God's image.) God really does love and care about us that is why he gives us commandments. When we follow God's commandments we become more like him.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
~ John 3:16 (Perishing or spiritual death, does not mean ceasing to exist, it means our spiritual progression dies and we wont be able to reach our full potential and be Gods someday like our Heavenly Father.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ made it so we can repent of our sins (which inhibit our spiritual growth and separate us from God.) Through Jesus Christs Atonement and our continual repentance, one day we can be perfect and one day we can be Gods just like our Heavenly Father.
There are more things I would like to say, but I want to make sure you understand that much so far, do you have any questions about any of that?
Firstborner
Active Member
I never said man was created from nothing, the scripture declares man as being formed by God from the earth,and breathed into man's nostrils the spirit of life, and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7). That God is an unmade being is obvious in that he placed his son over all things that were made.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Where does it say God is an unmade being.
John 1:3 sounds more like God made himself.
John 1:3 sounds more like God made himself.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
From one of the best of sources, the Baha'i scriptures (which IOV are God-sent):
XIX.
1"To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving."
2"The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness [Divine Messengers] to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.
3"These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. . . ."
--Gleanings, p. 46.
Best!
Bruce
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
From the Baha'i scriptures:
LXXXVIII.
"... What power can the shadowy creature claim to possess when face to face with Him Who is the Uncreated?"
--Prayers and Meditations, p. 149.
And the Buddhist scriptures also speak of "the Uncreated."
Peace,
Bruce
James Humphreys
Member
I respect your views, but I don't think eternal necessarily means being without beginning. People's spirits are eternal in the sense that they will continue on eternally into the future. God alone is without beginning, because time and space which can measure beginnings and ends, sprang forth from him. If there was a time that God was not exalted, it means that his exaltation took place within the march of time. That would mean that God is limited by the parameters of time and space. Then who created time and space?
If we accept that we are made in the image of God, perhaps it can be said that those images, or ideas, of what each one of us would become, already existed inside God in potential from before God started his creation.
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Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
From one of the best of sources, the Baha'i scriptures (which IOV are God-sent):
XIX.
1"To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving."
2"The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness [Divine Messengers] to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.
3"These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. . . ."
--Gleanings, p. 46.
Best!
Bruce
What are the Bahai Scriptures?
no-body
Well-Known Member
That doesn't answer how God can be an exalted man. Are you saying when Jesus was created by God he went back in time to become God, some kind of paradoxical time loop? Doesn't it imply that at some point God was not a man.
Also I doubt the veracity of Christian scripture in the first place; especially if the nature of such a God is that he was once man. I would question the motives of any man, even an exalted one. Man or God, it doesn't matter what he promise I would rather be destroyed than bow down to an evil entity who claims to be good simply because he created everything and demands worship because he is the strongest.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
God our Heavenly Father never lived a mortal life on this earth, just the savior (the son of God). God the Father lived a mortal life like ours on some other planet. Our Universe is a lot bigger than just this earth.
God doesn't demand that we worship him. He loves us enough to give us our agency to follow him if we want to or run away from him. That is what the plan of salvation is all about. We can live as far away from God or as close to God as we want. He isn't going to force us. Encourage yes, but force no. We are not his dogs on a leash.
Seriously, yaddoe, that's conjecture. There is nowhere in any of the Standard Works where we are told that. We can surmise such a thing from certain scriptures, but I think it's a big mistake to try to present such a concept as actual doctrine. Anyway, even if God the Father did live a mortal life at some point in the past, it not only wouldn't have been on this earth, it wouldn't have been anywhere in this universe (since He created this universe). You get speculating on stuff like this and it inevitably leads to questions you simply cannot answer. Like who was God's Father? (Something tells me you haven't been doing this religious discussion thing for very long.
)
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Seriously, yaddoe, that's conjecture. There is nowhere in any of the Standard Works where we are told that. We can surmise such a thing from certain scriptures, but I think it's a big mistake to try to present such a concept as actual doctrine. Anyway, even if God the Father did live a mortal life at some point in the past, it not only wouldn't have been on this earth, it wouldn't have been anywhere in this universe (since He created this universe). You get speculating on stuff like this and it inevitably leads to questions you simply cannot answer. Like who was God's Father? (Something tells me you haven't been doing this religious discussion thing for very long.
Conjecture? I can't say I'm familiar with that word... can you help me out here?
Hey I just said God is from a different planet than our own, is that not self evident?
It is doctrine however that God did live a mortal life at some point in the past. Read The King Follet Sermon by the prophet Joseph Smith Jr. in the April Ensign of 1971 on LDS.org. Also note when it states that Joseph Smith gave this sermon at a funeral in a public setting just a few months before he was martyred, and it was very likely that there were people in the audience who were plotting his martyrdom, who he addresses several times throughout the sermon. I love this talk.
The King Follett Sermon - Ensign Apr. 1971
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding it goes earth/planet, Solar System, Galaxy, Universe. Universe is everything else out there and it goes on with out end. I can't say I've ever heard of there being other universes out there. I think it is self evident that God is not from our planet.
As to God creating all things. Tell me if this makes sense to you, or if you disagree. In the King Follet Sermon, Joseph Smith mentions Heavenly Father once lived a mortal life, alluding to Heavenly Father having a Father in Heaven. So in order to become God, he needed to become one with His Father in Heaven, who is one with His Father in Heaven, and on and on for all eternity. (If you could Hie to Kolob...) So just as the God Head is one God yet 3, there is actually alot more out there who are one with God, so technically saying all of the Heavenly Fathers out there are one God, so there is no problem stating that there is only one Universe. I'm sorry if I am over complicating things, but is this not true? and does it make sense on how God created all things?
If I can find a question I can not answer, I have no problem in simply stating I don't know. I actually really look for questions I can not answer, it makes my scripture study more interesting and it keeps me learning.
I do admit though that I've only been doing the Religious Forum thing for a few days now. I love it, it is super addicting and extreamly fun.