God is an exhaulted Man

[sojourner]

You just said that you believe in all of these things, even when the Bible said ye are gods and joint heirs in Christ, putting us at one with God. You must have a different interpertationn of these scriptures, either that or you completely ignored them.

Why do you think we are "joint heirs?" Because God became one of us in the person of Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

Adam was made in God's image

Capable of love, imagination and creativity.

and Moses talked with God face to face as a man speaketh unto his friend?

A convenient, anthropomorphic metaphor.

And to you what was the point of Christ's resurrection if it were not reclaim his physical body, which He needed in order to to fullill a greater purpose/ goal. Do you think Christ was resurrected, got his body back to talk to men and then shed it off again somewhere?

Not sure he reclaimed his physical body. Remember: Mary could not hold onto him, and he could, apparently, 1) walk through closed doors and 2) appear and disappear at will.

Are you a believer in the Godhead, or in the Trinity?

God is Three in One.

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."

Again, please cite your sources. Your quote is not available in any of the sources that I, or the rest of orthodoxy, hold sacred. Therefore, it has little meaning for me in my theological formulation.

 

[sojourner]

Maybe I have described things poorly,
This is one of my favorite passage on faith.
It is found in the Book of Mormon, in the Book of Alma Chapter 32.
I really don't think it gets much better than this. Please tell me what you think of this passage, (Not the Book of Mormon as a whole, we can talk about that later, just this passage. It really is wonderful.)

"17Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

22And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word."
"26Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38But if ye aneglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the bfruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

If you're basing your assumption that God is/was a corporeal being off of purely Mormon writings, then you can't expect the rest of us to get on board with you. In order to convince the rest of us that this is "true," you're going to have to establish some common ground with the rest of us. Fabricating a tortured interpretation of various passages of Biblical text doesn't help, either.

 

[sojourner]

As to God not being particlular, what do you have to support that? Is it just the omnipresence thing?
Has it ever crossed your mind that God the Father is omnipresent through the Holy Ghost? I can't say that I know that for certain, I've got to go find a good source to confirm this as doctrine, but it is a possibility among many.

The best witnesses we have to God's nature are the Bible and the church. Both make the implication that God is not particular.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Why do you think we are "joint heirs?" Because God became one of us in the person of Jesus.

That is just what the scripture says, and we are God's children, just
like if you have kids, they are your children.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

If you're basing your assumption that God is/was a corporeal being off of purely Mormon writings, then you can't expect the rest of us to get on board with you. In order to convince the rest of us that this is "true," you're going to have to establish some common ground with the rest of us. Fabricating a tortured interpretation of various passages of Biblical text doesn't help, either.

Did you even read the passage about faith? What about it do you not agree with?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

The best witnesses we have to God's nature are the Bible and the church. Both make the implication that God is not particular.

Okay, you say the Bible, but you lack any references, and you say the church and yet you don't say which church, and what gives them the authority to be the right church with the right doctrine standing apart from all the other churches.
At least I provided a few instances in the Bible (Adam made in Gods image) and (Moses talking with God Face to Face)
and at least the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has a claim on authority.
Without authority you are like a wave tossed to and fro across the sea and are without a solid foundation to make a claim.

 

[sojourner]

That is just what the scripture says, and we are God's children, just
like if you have kids, they are your children.

It never occurred to you that "children" might be used in a more metaphorical sense?

 

[sojourner]

Did you even read the passage about faith? What about it do you not agree with?

Yes I did. I disagree with the whole thrust of it. It's not a dynamic of "faith vs. knowledge." Perfect knowledge is faith. We come to faith in Christ when our knowledge of Christ is becoming perfect within us.

 

[sojourner]

Okay, you say the Bible, but you lack any references, at least I provided a few instances in the Bible (Adam made in Gods image) and (Moses talking with God Face to Face)

What, specifically, are you looking for?

 

[no-body]

God our Heavenly Father never lived a mortal life on this earth, just the savior (the son of God). God the Father lived a mortal life like ours on some other planet. Our Universe is a lot bigger than just this earth.

This brings up all sorts of questions. Does that mean that God was not the first in the other universe, that he is the first of a group of alien man like beings who became transcendent? The Jesus of his universe perhaps.

Or is it another paradox type deal where God is the first exalted anything and then goes back in time as soon as he gains his powers to create himself and everything else?

God doesn't demand that we worship him. He loves us enough to give us our agency to follow him if we want to or run away from him. That is what the plan of salvation is all about. We can live as far away from God or as close to God as we want. He isn't going to force us. Encourage yes, but force no. We are not his dogs on a leash.

Fair enough, I admire this particular LDS position of a tolerant God.

 

[earlwooters]

If God is an exhalted man, then he better be exhalted to the max, because humans are inherently flawed to the max. Now wait, if God is a man, no matter what kind, exhaulted or not who gave birth to him? This may be the chicken before the egg thing.

 

[waitasec]

First we'd have to get over that slight hurdle of justifying that such a being even exists, let alone that it's some kind of exalted male!

i second that...




(this was worth repeating... )

 

[Katzpur]

there are a lot of other things that are considered doctrine too.
(Church Magazines, Church Manuals, the church videos, and other books.)
What to look for on each of these, to know if it is doctrine, is the Church Stamp of Approval (The Church Logo) on the front or back of any of these items.

No, those are not sources of official Church doctrine. They are commentaries on doctrine, interpretations of doctrine, often times by the "correlation committee." The Church logo is not a "Stamp of Approval." Do you consider "The Journal of Discourses" to be Church doctrine? What about McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine"?

 

[Katzpur]

Conjecture? I can't say I'm familiar with that word... can you help me out here?

Yes, it means speculation, guesswork, inference, supposition or assumption. And it's something the General Authorities have expressely advised us not to engage in.

Hey I just said God is from a different planet than our own, is that not self evident?

Hmmm. I always thought He was from Heaven. Even the Book of Abraham, which mentions "Kolob" by name, says that it's a star (not a planet) and does not imply that God lives there. Obviously God is not "from planet Earth" since He created the Earth, but to say that He's "from a different planet than our own" is really just your own attempt to explain doctrines that even the General Authorities haven't attempted to explain.

It is doctrine however that God did live a mortal life at some point in the past. Read The King Follet Sermon by the prophet Joseph Smith Jr. in the April Ensign of 1971 on LDS.org. Also note when it states that Joseph Smith gave this sermon at a funeral in a public setting just a few months before he was martyred, and it was very likely that there were people in the audience who were plotting his martyrdom, who he addresses several times throughout the sermon. I love this talk.

I love the King Follett Discourage, too. It's a beautiful sermon. That doesn't make it official doctrine.

As to God creating all things. Tell me if this makes sense to you, or if you disagree. In the King Follet Sermon, Joseph Smith mentions Heavenly Father once lived a mortal life, alluding to Heavenly Father having a Father in Heaven. So in order to become God, he needed to become one with His Father in Heaven, who is one with His Father in Heaven, and on and on for all eternity. (If you could Hie to Kolob...) So just as the God Head is one God yet 3, there is actually alot more out there who are one with God, so technically saying all of the Heavenly Fathers out there are one God, so there is no problem stating that there is only one Universe. I'm sorry if I am over complicating things, but is this not true? and does it make sense on how God created all things?

It makes sense to me, and to a large extent I agree with it. That doesn't make it doctrine.

If I can find a question I can not answer, I have no problem in simply stating I don't know. I actually really look for questions I can not answer, it makes my scripture study more interesting and it keeps me learning.

That's good to hear.

I do admit though that I've only been doing the Religious Forum thing for a few days now. I love it, it is super addicting and extreamly fun.

Yes, it's definitely addicting.

 

[Relentless]

Again, this way still doesn't work. If prayer works, it can't have anything to do with which specific religion is being followed; read Autobiography of a Yogi if you don't believe me. And that's the thing: this sort of thinking as to how prayer is supposed to work would be wholly independent on which God, if indeed it's a God at all, is being prayed to. I once saw a video on youtube that addressed this sort of thing: saying the results would be exactly the same as if you prayed to a jug of milk.

Essentially, it's saying that "if you don't pray hard enough, you won't get what you want." Well, does that mean there isn't a single full-hearted prayer in hard-hit disaster areas? Considering the numbers, I don't think so. It's a VERY insensitive thing to say.

Now, don't get me wrong. I do believe prayer works to an extent. I myself have prayed and more often than not gotten immediate results; the only time it didn't work to my recent memory was praying not to have any rain on the way home, and lo, it rained a bit. (I think Mother was having a great laugh. ^_^) Heck, only last night I prayed that I would be able to get up the next morning at around 6 AM, and I received an immediate mental "answer" (which, for the secularists reading, I fully accept may have just been my own mind) saying essentially "while I could help you with that, it would be better for your growth if you used your own willpower to get up." I managed to do so, BTW.

I'm a strict supporter of what works for the individual. It's already clear that your beliefs don't jibe with yaddoe's, so to say that his way doesn't work, is a bit much. If you're content to forge a relationship with some formless mystery, then so be it. I prefer to speak one on one with my father in heaven.

 

[Katzpur]

It never occurred to you that "children" might be used in a more metaphorical sense?

I'm really not too keen on getting all that involved on this thread, and I may hate myself for doing so, but I've just got to say that the Bible says describes God as "the Father of spirits." If He is the Father of our spirits, we are then His spirit offspring. I don't know if you consider that metaphorical or not. I don't. Granted, that doesn't make God the Father of our physical selves; the Bible is quite clear in stating that Jesus Christ is His "only begotten Son," but I don't think you can dismiss the idea that He did, in some way, do more than merely create us, just as He created all other life forms. We are related to Him in a much more intimate way than any other life is, in my opinion.

 

[sojourner]

I'm really not too keen on getting all that involved on this thread, and I may hate myself for doing so, but I've just got to say that the Bible says describes God as "the Father of spirits." If He is the Father of our spirits, we are then His spirit offspring. I don't know if you consider that metaphorical or not. I don't. Granted, that doesn't make God the Father of our physical selves; the Bible is quite clear in stating that Jesus Christ is His "only begotten Son," but I don't think you can dismiss the idea that He did, in some way, do more than merely create us, just as He created all other life forms. We are related to Him in a much more intimate way than any other life is, in my opinion.

I agree, at least nominally, with everything you say here. My point was to point out the logic that, just because we're human that God must be human too, is flawed. (In fact, without going too much deeper, I believe that God did become human in the person of Jesus, but you already know that.) We must look at it from the other direction. God is Spirit. Therefore, if God is our father, we must be spiritual creatures too.

 

[Katzpur]

I agree, at least nominally, with everything you say here. My point was to point out the logic that, just because we're human that God must be human too, is flawed. (In fact, without going too much deeper, I believe that God did become human in the person of Jesus, but you already know that.) We must look at it from the other direction. God is Spirit. Therefore, if God is our father, we must be spiritual creatures too.

Okay, let's explore this one point. God is spirit? What exactly does that mean to you, particularly with respect to your comment that "we must be spiritual creatures, too"? How would you define the word "spirit," or, if you find the word difficult to define, what do you think a spirit creature is? What are the attributes of a spirit? What are a spirit's capabilities? What are its restrictions? (I don't need an answer to each of those question. I just put them out there to direct your thoughts to what I am looking for in terms of a definition or explanation of what you mean by the word "spirit.")

 

[sojourner]

Okay, let's explore this one point. God is spirit? What exactly does that mean to you, particularly with respect to your comment that "we must be spiritual creatures, too"? How would you define the word "spirit," or, if you find the word difficult to define, what do you think a spirit creature is? What are the attributes of a spirit? What are a spirit's capabilities? What are its restrictions? (I don't need an answer to each of those question. I just put them out there to direct your thoughts to what I am looking for in terms of a definition or explanation of what you mean by the word "spirit.")

God blew (spirit) into the man. That's what made us nephesh. That simple. I don't pretend to understand the subtleties. We are also "of the earth," because that is how we were created. Since God was not created "of the earth," God has no particular, corporeal form (other than Jesus).