sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Is that phrase any different from Godel's Theorem?
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"God is greater than reason"
- Thread starter vijeno
- Start date
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
So 'reality' is logically consistent because we need it to be.
How is this any different than 'god' is because we need 'him' to be?
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Mathematics isn't a hobby of mine (can't stand the stuff), so can you explain it?
I did check Wikipedia on it, but it may as well have been in Klingon.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Mathematics isn't a hobby of mine (can't stand the stuff), so can you explain it?
I did check Wikipedia on it, but it may as well have been in Klingon.
I think it can be summed up as truths are stronger than proofs.
"There are true statements of number theory which it's methods of proof are too weak to demonstrate" - Hofstadter p.18
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Wouldn't those truths still be logical, though?
Truths may be stronger than proofs, because not everything can easily be proved.
However, to say truths (or in this case, a Truth) are/is greater/stronger than logic seems to be a strange philosophy, as how can something illogical be true? Something can be true and appear illogical, but there is still the chance that the reason for that hasn't been discovered, but for a Truth to be greater than logic seems to imply it transcends logic, which seems illogical.
Or something.
Truths may be stronger than proofs, because not everything can easily be proved.
However, to say truths (or in this case, a Truth) are/is greater/stronger than logic seems to be a strange philosophy, as how can something illogical be true? Something can be true and appear illogical, but there is still the chance that the reason for that hasn't been discovered, but for a Truth to be greater than logic seems to imply it transcends logic, which seems illogical.
Or something.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
On a different tack - I see no reason at all to presume that any truth - if such a beast exists - would fit with logic. Do you?Wouldn't those truths still be logical, though?
Truths may be stronger than proofs, because not everything can easily be proved.
However, to say truths (or in this case, a Truth) are/is greater/stronger than logic seems to be a strange philosophy, as how can something illogical be true? Something can be true and appear illogical, but there is still the chance that the reason for that hasn't been discovered, but for a Truth to be greater than logic seems to imply it transcends logic, which seems illogical.
Or something.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
I'm not entirely sure.
I would like to think that truths are logical, and logical things are true, but I know that things can change as we learn more about the universe. At one point, people probably thought the sun was a giant ball of fire in the sky. That would have probably been a truth in those days, although they were wrong about what it actually was made out of.
Some things though are undoubtedly truths: 1+1 is always 2, no matter where you are in the universe, for a simple example. I don't know how far such truths extend outside of mathematics and physics (as well as what has been observed, like evolution), though.
For something as complex as a God, though, I don't think it will ever be answered.
Just my $0.02 on it.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
I think that regardless of whether one is theist/atheist/whatever that's the rub.
We seek pattern, order, predictability - logic.
I see no reason at all to presume that logic is a factor of the world as the world is in itself.
Logic and rationality are built on a need, on longing. Much like the god eschewed by many of my learned friends
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I think that regardless of whether one is theist/atheist/whatever that's the rub.
We seek pattern, order, predictability - logic.
I see no reason at all to presume that logic is a factor of the world as the world is in itself.
Logic and rationality are built on a need, on longing. Much like the god eschewed by many of my learned friends
Is this based on something that cannot be proven?
I believe in life after death.
The proving is not for the living....it belongs to the dead.
I already believe...can't show you the proof.
You will have to wait.
But that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
So as you say, 'logic built on need'.
I feel the need to live...though soon I will die.
I have built a foundation of logic to that effect.
When the 'proof' finally gets here, I go on for cause of preparation...and faith.
What happens to you?....having waited for proof and not built foundation?
Going to stand up from your dust...and then say to the angels...
'oh!...so you ARE real!'
But maybe you already believe?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Where do you draw the line?
A Creator that cannot reason?
The universe seems to be well built.
But chaos functions within it.
Chaos is controlled.
Or perhaps you are seeking a line you can make and God will conform to it?
Who is greater...you or the Creator?
Wissenssteigung
New Member
If you have a socket short-circuiting, then you can see electricity and possibly also feel it physically. With god, we cant see or feel it physically, we can only feel it psychologically.
But god is said to make/do things with a particular purpose(s), so he must have reason, otherwise he would be doing things randomly and chaotically. When one says common phrases like "god gave people free will he wanted to see if they'd worship him", that implies God is operating within reason. If he's beyond reason, then he may still give people free will but for no reason at all. Heaven wouldn't be a place that's nice, it'd be completely chaotic.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Because we don't need him to be, just as we don't need the parrarel postulate.
Then how does one know they are true? And also, isn't this only true of a certain type of statements - namely, self-referential ones?
ETA1: Okay, I looked that one up. It's about self-referential statements indeed. As far as I understand it, it does not imply that contradictory statements are true.
ETA2: So the issue still stands: Every definition of god that includes "god is absolute" but also says anything else - regardless of what -, is contradictory, because it ascribes relative attributes to an absolute god. And ex contradictio quodlibet. Thus, all monotheist religions are gibberish.
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Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
People who make such statements generally lack a true understanding of reason - as well as god.
gnostic
The Lost One
thief said:
What evidences do you have to support that the universe was created by some divine beings, let alone a god?
And a chaos controlled, is not chaos in the 1st place.
thief said:
Which bring me back to my point, are where the evidences of god you're talking? This creator?
Why do you think this creator is above reasoning? There is no such thing as greater than "reason", unless you are talking about irrationality, and judging by this book you called bible, I am not surprise that this character you call god is without reasoning.
Consider the Revelation. Is that the reasoning of god?
Destroyed the world, and only a little over hundred thousand are saved, while billions are condemn to suffering both on earth and in hell?
It is not only irrational, but is not the sign of loving and compassionate god which Jesus has supposedly portrayed. it is a sign of sadistic butcher to allow billions of people to suffer when only handful are saved.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Wouldn't he be?
McBell
Unbound
Seems to me that it is merely a load of bovine excrement people tell themselves in order to justify their unreasonable belief in something that has no measurable effect on reality.
But then, I have been told that I am a glass half empty type person.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
If you're attempting to empty the glass then "half empty" is the optimistic perspective.