God is nice and is doing his best to eliminate suffering.

[ppp]

The problem of evil only applies to humans because every evil thing comes from humans. Evil is the result of humans who break the Laws of God. For example, rape and murder are the result of breaking the Laws of God.

Each of those sentences is wrong.

 

[Link]

Theodicy is only about solving the problem of evil. The problem of evil only applies to purported beings that are claimed to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. An omnibenevolent prioritize the elimination of suffering. An omniscient being would know how to eliminate suffering. An omnipotent being would be capable of eliminating suffering. As such, if such a being existed then there would be no suffering, and there never would have been.

This shows it's oversimplification of the issue.

 

[ppp]

This shows it's oversimplification of the issue.

You overcomplicate things in order to give yourself the room to dance around the facts of the matter.

 

[KWED]

No, life is not fair at all. You will never get an argument from me trying to convince you that life is fair, and that God is just, because I don't believe that.

Why did you get an easy life and I got a hard life? Only God knows the answer to that and He is keeping that under His hat. I could conjecture till the cows come home, but that would only be my personal opinion. Religious apologists will have an answer for you to cover for their loving God but you won't catch me doing that.

It is a miracle I am still alive with all the suffering I have had to endure, especially lately. One more thing God throws as me and it is curtains, God also knows that, so the tide had better be turning soon or I will be soon meeting my Maker.

So why do you worship him?
Even assuming he exists (which you admit is not certain), you acknowledge that he isn't fair or just, so you can't rely on the idea of a better time in the next life. If there is an afterlife it could just be more suffering.

 

[Trailblazer]

So why do you worship him?

Who said I do?

Even assuming he exists (which you admit is not certain), you acknowledge that he isn't fair or just, so you can't rely on the idea of a better time in the next life. If there is an afterlife it could just be more suffering.

I said I do not believe that God is fair or just but that is not the same thing as saying that God is not fair or just, as what I believe does not make anything true. What I believe is based upon my feelings but feelings can lead us astray.

I do not believe that the afterlife will be more suffering because that makes no sense to me, since suffering is the result of living in a material world, where people have to struggle to make a living to support themselves, and people have accidents and injuries and get sick and die. The next world aka heaven is not a material world so there will be no more suffering of the kind we experience in this world. When there are no physical needs and physical body there will be no more suffering. The only suffering we might experience is regretting what we did not do here that we could have done, since this is the last train out of Dodge so to speak, our one and only opportunity to prepare ourselves for the next life.

 

[syo]

God is doing his best to eliminate suffering

No he doesn't. He's deist, he doesn't interact with maya.

 

[KWED]

Who said I do?

So you are no longer a Bahai?
Well done!

I said I do not believe that God is fair or just but that is not the same thing as saying that God is not fair or just, as what I believe does not make anything true. What I believe is based upon my feelings but feelings can lead us astray.

Very true. That is why we should rely more on evidence and rational argument. Both of those suggest that there is no god, but if there was, he is unfair and unjust.

I do not believe that the afterlife will be more suffering because that makes no sense to me,

You have just admitted that your feelings aren't reliable.

The next world aka heaven is not a material world so there will be no more suffering of the kind we experience in this world.

God could make the next life an eternal torment of suffering if he wanted to. And the evidence from his behaviour in this wold suggests that he might well do that.

 

[samtonga43]

Who said I do?

You did. Are you now saying that you no longer worship God? You have also said many times that you do not love God. So you don't love Him and you don't worship
Him and you think He is unjust. Why would you want to be with Him forever?
These atheists have really got to you, haven't they?

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are no longer a Bahai?
Well done!

I never said that I was no longer a Baha'i, I will always be a Baha'i.
Worshiping God is not a 'requirement' for being a Baha'i, the requirement is that we believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation (Messenger) of God.

However, I do worship God because I express a reverence for God and respect God deeply.

Worship: the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
worship maans - Google Search

Love is just a 'feeling' and there are different ways to express love, I do not 'feel love' for God but that does not mean I do not love God.

48. O SON OF MAN!
For everything there is a sign. The sign of love is fortitude under My decree and patience under My trials.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

I display fortitude under God's decree and patience under my trials, so according to Baha'u'llah I love God, even if I do not "feel" that way. My complaining about God at times is not a sign of anything but my feelings but feelings are not a reliable guide to what is really going on.

Very true. That is why we should rely more on evidence and rational argument. Both of those suggest that there is no god, but if there was, he is unfair and unjust.

There is no evidence or rational argument that suggests that there is no God. However, there is evidence that suggests that there is a God, and that evidence is the Messengers of God.

There is no evidence or rational argument that suggests that there if there is a God, God is unfair and unjust. That God is unfair and unjust is simply a personal opinion based upon what some people do not like that they see in this world. Personal opinions abound and they don't prove anything at all.

You have just admitted that your feelings aren't reliable.

Feelings are not reliable, and that applies not just MY feelings, it applies to feelings in general.

God could make the next life an eternal torment of suffering if he wanted to. And the evidence from his behaviour in this wold suggests that he might well do that.

You are correct in saying that God could make the next life an eternal torment of suffering if he wanted to, and it might be that way for some people, not because God made it that way but rather because those people created their own hell by their thoughts and actions in this world.

 

[Trailblazer]

You did. Are you now saying that you no longer worship God? You have also said many times that you do not love God. So you don't love Him and you don't worship.

No, I am not saying that I no longer worship God and I am not saying that I do not love God.
I just explained that to KWED in the the post above this one. Please read what I said.

Him and you think He is unjust. Why would you want to be with Him forever?

Sometimes I feel that God is unjust, but that is just a feeling, and feelings are unreliable (see post above).
I don't know if I want to be with God forever or if I will be.... Nobody knows what will happen to them in the next life.

These atheists have really got to you, haven't they?

That might be true if I was in a debate with these atheists but I am not in a debate, I am in a discussion. A debate is where two people are trying to win, to prove they are right and the other person is wrong. A discussion is where two people exchange ideas and hopefully both parties learn something new.

 

[Link]

No he doesn't. He's deist, he doesn't interact with maya.

I tried to come up with theodicies when I didn't believe in divine books and divinely appointed leaders. They don't make sense.

I believe only if God is doing his best to try to help us and stop suffering in this world, and that suffering was never part of original plan, that I can see suffering as something that can exist.

Part of goodness is to want to help stop or alleviate suffering.
God is good.
Part of God's goodness is to want to help stop or alleviate suffering.

 

[Link]

Meaningful worship has to be free and able to screw up nor can truth be so obvious that there is no possible room to deviate for love to be meaningful.
God set up the world so it's unlikely any soul go astray (in the start) but make things a bit difficult on Angels/Jinn when they required to worship God through Adam (a) as direction towards God.
All passed, but Iblis.....
Iblis argued with God or addressed those speaking on his behalf and addressed God while not believing, if I can go astray and you allow that, then I should be allowed to try these humans that you've chosen to be place your authority in.
If humans are sincere to God, Iblis can't control them. Same with Jinn (who started off all as Angels of God in the beginning).
Adam was elite servant of God but unexpectedly was misguided by Iblis and wanted to be of the abiding tree and have authority that does not cease and sought such power, authority and position by doubting the truth when Iblis "swore by God"
God created this fallen world (never meant to be) when things in original plan went haywire in a way that it was likely most if not almost all souls become guided.
Despite appointing successors to Adam (a), people followed their own leaders rather then who God set (Seth means set by God) for them and established for them.
Nuh (a) was to save humanity but they disobeyed him and followed the misguiding leaders.
The believers were emphasized that ought to be grateful, but it happened to them and almost if not every time since, that when believers are saved, a great portion of them become ungrateful after and associate with God after sincerely worshiping him in tribulations.
Insincerity to God is a common disease, we spread to each other.
God been trying to restore the world to dignity, there is still chance world is guided but time is ticking of warned events as the world is nearing is it's completed time.
It was given how many strong souls gathered around Mohammad (s), that this final revelation from God (Quran), change things for the better, but the tragedies occurred, and when Imam Hussain (a) was killed, justice became increasingly unlikely yet the Imams (a) did what they can do restore while at the same preparing for the worse, the long Ghayba which seemed more unavoidable, as the brightness of the sunny days were veiled and became dark nights who humanity and Jinn are yet to appreciate.

 

[Goldemar]

I wrote this in another thread, but thought it deserves a topic itself.

My understanding is God is doing his best to eliminate suffering, evil and guide us. The following post elaborates:

Salam

Corruption in land and sea is because of what humans hands has earned.

Suffering by humans to other humans, is not God's punishment or him afflicting it.

He tries us by each other and allows evil ones to cause suffering on earth.

Why doesn't he just get rid of all evil people. He does time and time again, destroy oppressors, and their day is coming.

However, he wishes for evil people to be saved as well.

God loves to forgive more then to punish. He is begging us to ask forgiveness from him. Who does that?

No one asks people who are evil towards them to ask forgiveness so they can forgive them. No one. If the person will ask forgiveness, it won't be by that person reaching out begging them to ask forgiveness so that they could on good terms.

God is nice, but there is limits to being nice. Life is a limited time. Die evil, and consequences are forever. But God is asking us to seek his forgiveness and pray for guidance. He has warned us about the Devils from Jinn because they are unseen parts of our psyche whether we notice or don't.

He wishes to guide us to that he can reward us.

If he can "force" love and make us see his beauty, he would. There is no forcing love, it has to come with freewill. When truth is clear beyond possibility of doubt and there is no way to doubt it at all no matter how much we might try, it's too late to love God, because the matter is decreed now and there is no reward that be given for faith.

The day of judgment people will know truth but at the same time, never be more blind to God and his truth, they will blind to his beauty and further astray in hate of him. Their prayers will always be in error because it can't have love at this point. It will be empty words.

God is trying to save us. What else can he do?

Too many signs have caused nations to perish in the past and the Mahdi (a) coming out when world is not ready can have consequences.

Yet it's upon God to save believers at the moment of peril and distress from their enemies, believers are asking disbelievers for peace and justice, so that the hour doesn't destroy them and world doesn't face the consequences of not being ready.

God never wanted to create this world in the first place. Satan was never meant to disobey God, Adam (a) elite friend of God was truthful so trusted Iblis, but still, why didn't he rely on Ahlulbayt (a) and reach out to them in moments of peril? After that, there was no choice, but to create this world, as he can't try repeat when we all saw consequences, and so had to create a world of trials. But successors of Adam (a) up to Idris (a) were meant to be followed but things went haywire, and Nuh (A) couldn't save them when he was sent. All this was not meant to happen.

A disease we inherited generation to generation after, is that when believers are distressed they call upon God but when saved from enemies and brought to safety, many of them turn on their backs and begin to associate with God being ungrateful. This even happened with children of Israel during Musa (a) lifetime let alone after!

And 313 believers of battle of badr and sincere companions of Mohamad (s) were built by God and his light. They witnessed many things in battle. And the ones who fought Mohammad (s) were thankful for being spared blood and forgiven from the companions as well. It looked good. If most stayed true, as expected they should, things wouldn't have gone bad after Mohammad (s). But they were apathetic and didn't remain resolved and patient, were tired of battles, and didn't come to aid of Ali (a) and Fatima (a) except some of them, which Ali (a) decided to spare their blood and not fight as a result.

God did everything he can, revealed Surah Auli-Imran, begging companions of Mohammad (s) not to turn on their backs. What else can he do.

Fatima (a) reminded them, Ali (a) reminded them, what can be done.

Which God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Which God?

The one true God. Is there any other?

 

[Goldemar]

The one true God. Is there any other?

I believe there is a Great God in Heaven, but I also believe there is an evil, lower god who created the material world that is Earth.

The OP seemed to assume, as you seem to also, that there is only one god.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe there is a Great God in Heaven, but I also believe there is an evil, lower god who created the material world that is Earth.

The OP seemed to assume, as you seem to also, that there is only one god.

I have to admit that your belief makes sense, since I cannot understand how the Great God in Heaven would create this Earth, a material world that is a storehouse of suffering, and expect humans to live in it for the span of a lifetime. It is the cruelest thing I can imagine. I believe that there is only one true God but given all the suffering in this world I cannot believe that the one true God is a loving God.

 

[Link]

Which God?

the lord of the angels and prophets and sent ones

 

[Goldemar]

the lord of the angels and prophets and sent ones

Is this God also the creator of the material world?

 

[KWED]

I never said that I was no longer a Baha'i,

So when I said "why do you worship god", given that you believe that he is unfair and unjust and the cause of huge snouts of suffering - why did you say "who said I do", when you know you do. What was the point?

I will always be a Baha'i.

Many atheists used to say the same when they were religionists. They now find it hard to understand how they could have been so gullible.

Worshiping God is not a 'requirement' for being a Baha'i, the requirement is that we believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation (Messenger) of God.

Of course it is. Bahaullah said that it is incumbent on every Bahai to worship god. Perhaps you are referring to Bahaism's lack of structured, communal worship.
"worship of God is the paramount duty of man and the purpose of his life" (Kitáb-i-Aqdas)

However, I do worship God because I express a reverence for God and respect God deeply.

Worship: the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

Ok. So, given that you believe that god is unfair, unjust, and the cause of some of the suffering experienced by innocent people - why do you worship him?

I do not 'feel love' for God but that does not mean I do not love God.

More of the self-contradictory positions.

48. O SON OF MAN!
For everything there is a sign. The sign of love is fortitude under My decree and patience under My trials.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Confirming that you admit that god is the cause of some suffering, just in case you try to flip flop again.

There is no evidence or rational argument that suggests that there is no God.

There is evidence against specific gods, though errors in their revelation, etc. Therefore there is rational argument against specific gods.

However, there is evidence that suggests that there is a God, and that evidence is the Messengers of God.

We've been through this dozens of times. A person claiming that they are a messenger of god is neither evidence nor argument for that existence of that god. Unfortunately, you don't seem to have the capacity to understand that very basic fact.

There is no evidence or rational argument that suggests that there if there is a God, God is unfair and unjust.

Yes there is. For starters, my life as an atheist versus your life as a devout believer. You have even admitted that you believe that god is unfair and unjust based on the evidence (although you will no doubt contradict yourself on this).

That God is unfair and unjust is simply a personal opinion based upon what some people do not like that they see in this world.

No. It is a conclusion based on the evidence of observation.

Personal opinions abound and they don't prove anything at all.

And yet you claim to be 100% certain that your personal opinion about Bahaullah and god are valid.

You are correct in saying that God could make the next life an eternal torment of suffering if he wanted to, and it might be that way for some people, not because God made it that way but rather because those people created their own hell by their thoughts and actions in this world.

Your opinion has been noted, but at least you accept that god could continue inflicting suffering in the next life as well as this one.
If he deems you worthy of suffering and me of blessings in this life, what will change his mind come the next one?

 

[Trailblazer]

Many atheists used to say the same when they were religionists. They now find it hard to understand how they could have been so gullible.

That is not going to happen to me. I am not a Christian.
Besides, I have endured all the tests thus far, and still have faith, even if I am not always happy with God. That is not a requirement for being a Baha'i.

Of course it is. Bahaullah said that it is incumbent on every Bahai to worship god. Perhaps you are referring to Bahaism's lack of structured, communal worship.
"worship of God is the paramount duty of man and the purpose of his life" (Kitáb-i-Aqdas)

I do worship God because I express a reverence for God and respect God deeply.

Worship: the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
worship maans - Google Search

Ok. So, given that you believe that god is unfair, unjust, and the cause of some of the suffering experienced by innocent people - why do you worship him?

Because I believe in Baha'u'llah, and Baha'u'llah said that worship of God is the paramount duty of man and the purpose of his life.

Sometimes I feel that God is unfair, unjust, and the cause of some of the suffering experienced by innocent people, but I do not act on my feelings, I act according to what I believe is right to do.

More of the self-contradictory positions.

No, because feelings don't mean anything. Love is just a 'feeling' and there are different ways to express love, I do not 'feel love' for God but that does not mean I do not love God.

Confirming that you admit that god is the cause of some suffering, just in case you try to flip flop again.

I am glad you caught that -- My decree and patience under My trials.
No, there will be no flip-flopping. Clearly, God sends trials.

“Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

There is evidence against specific gods, though errors in their revelation, etc. Therefore there is rational argument against specific gods.

Sure, there is rational argument against specific religions but not against the one true God. There is only one true God although there are many 'conceptions' of that God held by different religions..

We've been through this dozens of times. A person claiming that they are a messenger of god is neither evidence nor argument for that existence of that god. Unfortunately, you don't seem to have the capacity to understand that very basic fact.

We've been through this dozens of times. A person claiming that they are a Messenger of God is not evidence that they are a Messenger of God because anyone can make a claim. The evidence is what supports the claim. Apparently, you don't seem to understand the difference between a claim and evidence that supports the claim.

Yes there is. For starters, my life as an atheist versus your life as a devout believer. You have even admitted that you believe that god is unfair and unjust based on the evidence (although you will no doubt contradict yourself on this).

How does your life as an atheist versus my life as a devout believer suggest that there if there is a God, God is unfair and unjust?

I do not believe that God is unfair and unjust, I sometimes feel that way. Do you know the difference between a belief and a feeling?

No. It is a conclusion based on the evidence of observation.

No, it is simply a personal opinion based upon what some people observe in this world, things they do not like, which they blame God for.

And yet you claim to be 100% certain that your personal opinion about Bahaullah and god are valid.

I never said that my personal opinion proves that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be and I never said that my personal opinion proves that God exists. The fact that I am 100% certain is because I believe those with certainty.

Your opinion has been noted, but at least you accept that god could continue inflicting suffering in the next life as well as this one.
If he deems you worthy of suffering and me of blessings in this life, what will change his mind come the next one?

Who said that you are better off than me because you have no suffering? Who said that is a blessing? It might feel that way now, but this life is only temporary. The next life is a completely different plane of existence. Those who suffer most in this life will reap the rewards of that suffering in the next world because suffering builds character. Also there will be a recompense from God for the suffering we have endured.