God is nice and is doing his best to eliminate suffering.

[Trailblazer]

I am so sorry to hear that. You have been going thru stuff for a while now. I hope that it is at least starting to get better.

It might be starting to get better but it is an uphill climb, so it is good that I have a strong will to overcome adversity and am good at climbing.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Salam

Everyone would worship God out of fright in this case and love of God would not mean much.

That's simply not true. The only ones who would have reason to fear this god would be those who have or plan to commit horrendous acts. And if they start to 'worship' this god out of fear then it's not genuine worship, it would simply be pretending to worship out of fear.

As for the rest of us who have no intention of committing horrendous acts, we'd have no reason to fear this god whatsoever. In fact we'd be grateful that this god being cares enough to protect us from the worst of humanity and would most probably result in people considering this caring god being worthy of their worship.

 

[Bird123]

Salam

You and I should have one on one debate about hell and vengeance.

You are missing the point of the OP which is to present a theodicy, and see if any holes in it.

Hell does not exist. The idea of Hell is a creation of mankind. Mankind uses Hell to intimidate people and coerce people to follow.

Think about it. Any Being who would create Hell, a fiery pit for eternity without the possibility of redemption, knowing anyone would actually go, there would be a Monster.

God is no Monster. There are better ways than mankind ways.

Vengeance is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. It will never be an intelligent act. God is at a Higher Level. God is too Intelligent to choose Vengeance of any kind.

As for theodicy, All I can say is Swiss Cheese.

How little you really Understand God and what God is doing? God is High Intelligence. Widen your view and Expand your thinking. Everything about God stares us all in the face. God hides nothing and it isn't in holy books.

I will leave you with something to Think about. To even have a clue of understanding you must let go of all the petty things mankind and your religion holds so dear.

With God, It has never ever been about Good verses Evil!!

Your we against they is just a way to justify Hate and all those petty things mankind holds so dear. It is the road away from God and a heavenly state. Do you really think these petty things will lead to the best results?

Choose and Discover for yourself.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

If you want to debate, reply and I will answer. Even taking baby steps, one can walk across the world.

While we might get replies from others, I welcome free speech from anyone. Be who you must and come as you are. That is always the best way for all to learn and grow.

You will get Truth from me. I will never Hate anyone.
You have all my Love and Kindness!!

 

[Link]

Vengeance is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. It will never be an intelligent act.

I think it has a proper place in virtue.

 

[Link]

If you want to debate, reply and I will answer.

Let's have a one on one debate about it? I will open the thread if you accept.

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's have a one on one debate about it? I will open the thread if you accept.

Please let me know if you start such a thread.

 

[questfortruth]

I wrote this in another thread, but thought it deserves a topic itself.

My understanding is God is doing his best to eliminate suffering, evil and guide us. The following post elaborates:

God hates evil. But God has compromise with evil. For example, you live 40 years, but you will have cancer at 41 year. The compromise is needed, because one group goes to hell, other group goes the Paradise. Without compromises there will be genocide.

 

[KWED]

Everyone would worship God out of fright in this case and love of God would not mean much.

Most people only worship a god because they have been raised to do so, rather than through any critical process or genuine emotional response
Do you think god would rather be worshipped through emotional response or because that's just what their parents/family/community do?

Whenever I press people on their actual motive for following religious rules, it is always because of fear/desire.
If god doesn't want people to worship him through fear/desire, why did he make religion all about punishment /reward?

You don't get your children to love you by threatening them. Or even by buying them presents. It happens naturally because you behave towards them in a loving way. God does not behave towards humans in a loving way. He is abusive, jealous, violent and intolerant, or impassive. In reality, religionists fear him, but convince themselves it is love, and that he loves them and the suffering is for their own good/their own fault.
Classic abuse victim behaviour.

 

[KWED]

Okay. How do you suppose God makes sure no suffering occurring is possible and with a lot of meaning?

Are you saying that the lives of people who do not experience much, or any suffering are meaningless?
Why must "meaning" involve suffering?
And why must there be "meaning"? Do other species have "meaning". Do the vast areas of the universe with no life have "meaning"?
Why is it only people who god visits suffering on who can have "meaning"?

 

[KWED]

Salam

In OP:

If he can "force" love and make us see his beauty, he would. There is no forcing love, it has to come with freewill. When truth is clear beyond possibility of doubt and there is no way to doubt it at all no matter how much we might try, it's too late to love God, because the matter is decreed now and there is no reward that be given for faith.

Later in the thread:

With time, physical pleasures get stale, so he could've created paradise to be more of a physical pleasure thing and stopped anyone trying to do crimes, and he could've made Adam body with gleaming light and of a type that Iblis would not disobey but things would be so pale, stale, boring and we would suffer in the long run.

Of course God created world without suffering and Adam was in paradise and meant to stay there, but things have gone haywire. If Adam didn't swerve perhaps this whole tragedy would've be avoided. But if he didn't allow Iblis to "misguide him", this would not be allowing creatures to misguide others, and everyone would be to afraid to disbelieve and voice their view.

And of course God doesn't want suffering but has allowed of a way of error handling and tries us by each other and trial from a fallen world. Without patience benefiting believers from their patience with regards to their enemies and trials of this world, he wouldn't have allowed it.

And God could've not tried Angels but they would be quite full of themselves and their worship almost worthless, so he created Adam and put his authority in him out of grace to them as well.

And of course it looks bad on God, but all it takes is some significant sincere amount of followers to God and his anointed Kings in any generation and we can put an end to suffering. And if the cursed Iblis remain patient and didn't fall and gave up his pride, everything would be perfect now.

So it looks bad, but it's error handling, things that were chance wise, very low chances to happen. Of course God knew the chances, but probability was on world being guided. This is a world that is not probable, so if we think it's purposely chosen to be like this, it's going to make God look bad.

So you are claiming that science is "meaningless" because its conclusion are provable and do not rely on faith.

This is an argument that always fails to make sense. This assumption that god wants us to believe in him without any evidence or rational argument. That if we knew he existed, he wouldn't want our worship.
WHY?

 

[KWED]

If there can be a lot of meaning without God, this argument would fail.

So your argument fails, because there can be much meaning in life without god. Billions of people prove this every day.

 

[KWED]

Only hedonistic type meaning and value can be a lot.

So the life of a teetotal, pacifist, celibate, atheist doctor who volunteers for disaster charities has only "hedonistic" meaning?
Oh dear.

But even that would get pale, there is an argument by Atheist philosophers that heaven is impossible, because give it enough time, and it would get terribly boring and you would get use the pleasures and they would mean less over time. You would want to cease to exist eventually out of suffering from boredom.

I agree with them if heaven was materialistically focused it would be like that. Even the women wedded to believers in paradise to me have a role in transfusing beauty and glory from God so that God is travelled to. But sex would get boring at point to if purely physical type we know.

Have you read the descriptions of Jannah in the Quran? It is all about hedonism!
It is designed to materialistically appeal to people whose normal life is hard and austere. It basically promises them the life that they imagine their rulers have. It is transparently obvious.

 

[KWED]

It might be starting to get better but it is an uphill climb, so it is good that I have a strong will to overcome adversity and am good at climbing.

It's a shame that god keeps piling it on you rather than sharing it around. I'd happily take on a bit of suffering to alleviate some of the extreme suffering experienced by some innocent children (as I'm sure their parents tell god in their prayers).
But no. God knows best. He thinks I deserve an easy life and those children need to die in agony (and that you go through what you do). Doesn't seem fair, does it?

 

[KWED]

I think it has a proper place in virtue.

Such as?

 

[ppp]

Salam

Only hedonistic type meaning and value can be a lot. But even that would get pale, there is an argument by Atheist philosophers that heaven is impossible, because give it enough time, and it would get terribly boring and you would get use the pleasures and they would mean less over time. You would want to cease to exist eventually out of suffering from boredom.

I agree with them if heaven was materialistically focused it would be like that. Even the women wedded to believers in paradise to me have a role in transfusing beauty and glory from God so that God is travelled to. But sex would get boring at point to if purely physical type we know.

The fact that you think in such facile terms with regards to meaning and purpose is telling. And you completely lost me with that misogynistic BS.

 

[Link]

So you are claiming that science is "meaningless" because its conclusion are provable and do not rely on faith.

This is an argument that always fails to make sense. This assumption that god wants us to believe in him without any evidence or rational argument. That if we knew he existed, he wouldn't want our worship.
WHY?

There is middle ground between proofs in a way no one can doubt no matter how stubborn they are (day of judgment type proofs) and no proof, with proofs enough for who wants to see, will see.

 

[Link]

The fact that you think in such facile terms with regards to meaning and purpose is telling. And you completely lost me with that misogynistic BS.

It's not just me. Atheist philosophers argue against heaven/paradise forever nature with such arguments.

 

[ppp]

It's not just me. Atheist philosophers argue against heaven/paradise forever nature with such arguments.

I don't care. Telling me what you think someone argues is worthless. If you cannot present a sound argument for your position, then you are not justified in that position.

 

[Link]

I don't care. Telling me what you think someone argues is worthless. If you cannot present a sound argument for your position, then you are not justified in that position.

That's fair enough. I've presented some of what I can. I will make a big post elaborating in details sometime soon as to why we need God and worshiping him in a meaningful way for peace and tranquility.

 

[ppp]

That's fair enough. I've presented some of what I can. I will make a big post elaborating in details sometime soon as to why we need God and worshiping him in a meaningful way for peace and tranquility.

I should think you would have to demonstrate that a god exists first before arguing that we need a god.