God is nice and is doing his best to eliminate suffering.

[Muffled]

I wrote this in another thread, but thought it deserves a topic itself.

My understanding is God is doing his best to eliminate suffering, evil and guide us. The following post elaborates:

Salam

Corruption in land and sea is because of what humans hands has earned.

Suffering by humans to other humans, is not God's punishment or him afflicting it.

He tries us by each other and allows evil ones to cause suffering on earth.

Why doesn't he just get rid of all evil people. He does time and time again, destroy oppressors, and their day is coming.

However, he wishes for evil people to be saved as well.

God loves to forgive more then to punish. He is begging us to ask forgiveness from him. Who does that?

No one asks people who are evil towards them to ask forgiveness so they can forgive them. No one. If the person will ask forgiveness, it won't be by that person reaching out begging them to ask forgiveness so that they could on good terms.

God is nice, but there is limits to being nice. Life is a limited time. Die evil, and consequences are forever. But God is asking us to seek his forgiveness and pray for guidance. He has warned us about the Devils from Jinn because they are unseen parts of our psyche whether we notice or don't.

He wishes to guide us to that he can reward us.

If he can "force" love and make us see his beauty, he would. There is no forcing love, it has to come with freewill. When truth is clear beyond possibility of doubt and there is no way to doubt it at all no matter how much we might try, it's too late to love God, because the matter is decreed now and there is no reward that be given for faith.

The day of judgment people will know truth but at the same time, never be more blind to God and his truth, they will blind to his beauty and further astray in hate of him. Their prayers will always be in error because it can't have love at this point. It will be empty words.

God is trying to save us. What else can he do?

Too many signs have caused nations to perish in the past and the Mahdi (a) coming out when world is not ready can have consequences.

Yet it's upon God to save believers at the moment of peril and distress from their enemies, believers are asking disbelievers for peace and justice, so that the hour doesn't destroy them and world doesn't face the consequences of not being ready.

God never wanted to create this world in the first place. Satan was never meant to disobey God, Adam (a) elite friend of God was truthful so trusted Iblis, but still, why didn't he rely on Ahlulbayt (a) and reach out to them in moments of peril? After that, there was no choice, but to create this world, as he can't try repeat when we all saw consequences, and so had to create a world of trials. But successors of Adam (a) up to Idris (a) were meant to be followed but things went haywire, and Nuh (A) couldn't save them when he was sent. All this was not meant to happen.

A disease we inherited generation to generation after, is that when believers are distressed they call upon God but when saved from enemies and brought to safety, many of them turn on their backs and begin to associate with God being ungrateful. This even happened with children of Israel during Musa (a) lifetime let alone after!

And 313 believers of battle of badr and sincere companions of Mohamad (s) were built by God and his light. They witnessed many things in battle. And the ones who fought Mohammad (s) were thankful for being spared blood and forgiven from the companions as well. It looked good. If most stayed true, as expected they should, things wouldn't have gone bad after Mohammad (s). But they were apathetic and didn't remain resolved and patient, were tired of battles, and didn't come to aid of Ali (a) and Fatima (a) except some of them, which Ali (a) decided to spare their blood and not fight as a result.

God did everything he can, revealed Surah Auli-Imran, begging companions of Mohammad (s) not to turn on their backs. What else can he do.

Fatima (a) reminded them, Ali (a) reminded them, what can be done.

I believe He died on a cross and sent the Holy Spirit.

 

[QuestioningMind]

What do you mean when God ends their life? Explain the details.

I mean the point at which this god being decides that the life this god being granted you will come to an end. That is when your heart stops beating, your lungs stop working, and your brain stops functioning. The point at which your friends and relatives can no longer stand the stench of your rotting corpse and decide to either cremate it or burry it.

Not sure how much more detail I can provide.

 

[ppp]

God can't do impossible things. He can't make love ascend to him without will, and will has to be free. Hence, he can't do everything we assert, just everything that is possible.

Don't care. Neither 'love' nor 'ascending' are relevant to the point of contention that I raised.

Let's start with that. It's because I've answered this in the OP and other posts. But I will start with that with you, since, you are emphasizing on tautology of God's omnipotence.

An omnipotent being can do anything that is logically possible.
Stopping suffering is logically possible.
Therefore there is no omnipotent being who wants to stop suffering

 

[Madmogwai]

Was there something you wished to debate, or is this just a sermon?

This cracked me up, classic.

 

[Madmogwai]

How do you conclude that?

Because your entire thread were beliefs that’s the Koran gave you.
Nothing there came from your mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

An omnipotent being can do anything that is logically possible.
Stopping suffering is logically possible.
Therefore there is no omnipotent being who wants to stop suffering

God might stop some suffering but obviously God does not want to stop all suffering since He could if He wanted to.

 

[Madmogwai]

Then everyone would obey God out of pure fear and not love and he won't be able to reward them with himself.

Submission to God to enter Heaven.
That sounds like fear to me.

 

[ppp]

God might stop some suffering but obviously God does not want to stop all suffering since He could if He wanted to.

No. Obviously, if there were an omnipotent god then he would not want to stop suffering.

 

[Link]

I mean the point at which this god being decides that the life this god being granted you will come to an end. That is when your heart stops beating, your lungs stop working, and your brain stops functioning. The point at which your friends and relatives can no longer stand the stench of your rotting corpse and decide to either cremate it or burry it.

Not sure how much more detail I can provide.

Salam

So how does God directly end that as oppose to being subtle and having the system and world we are in allow death?

If everyone doing a severe crime died right away, it would not be subtle and the system would not appear the way it is now. Everyone would see interference of God.

 

[Link]

Submission to God to enter Heaven.
That sounds like fear to me.

Salam

This is a fair point. There's a difference if signs are in clear vivid display like the day of judgment. Fear is not a virtue then. It has no value.

But this is why Quran emphasizes "fear God by the Hidden" and said "they believe in the hidden" and say concerning the proof "The disbelievers say why not a sign revealed regarding him, say: the hiddenness (of it) is for God....".

The signs of God if were at the state of day of judgment right now, there would be no trial.

But since to a degree, they are "hidden" and the degree of hiddenness is for God to decide, then fear of God takes humbleness and love of God and accepting of God's signs while they are not vividly forced upon us. That type of fear is high virtue. Because it's "by that which is hidden (the treasured signs of God)."

This type of fear means we respect God despite God not forcing it upon us. We fear the consequences of our actions while reality of our deeds is still hidden to a large degree.

 

[Link]

Don't care. Neither 'love' nor 'ascending' are relevant to the point of contention that I raised.


An omnipotent being can do anything that is logically possible.
Stopping suffering is logically possible.
Therefore there is no omnipotent being who wants to stop suffering

Salam

He could've created a world with no trial and made proof like the day of judgment. But that would be a very dull universe, with little value in deeds and no goodness or evil would exist. Life would have little meaning.

It would be pale. God is not going to sacrifice the reward and meaning of the good people so that no one suffers.

Of course, a meaningful world with no suffering was also possible, but not with no risks. If he is going to create love that ascends to him, that he has to allow it for room to go wrong. Of course, God set up everything so everything goes right, but despite all the chances in the favor of everything going right, things have gone haywire in a wrong way.

Because they gone haywire in a wrong way, it might look like God intended it to be like this in the first place. But that's far from the truth.

 

[ppp]

Salam

He could've created a world with no trial and made proof like the day of judgment. But that would be a very dull universe, with little value in deeds and no goodness or evil would exist. Life would have little meaning.

It would be pale. God is not going to sacrifice the reward and meaning of the good people so that no one suffers.

Of course, a meaningful world with no suffering was also possible, but not with no risks. If he is going to create love that ascends to him, that he has to allow it for room to go wrong. Of course, God set up everything so everything goes right, but despite all the chances in the favor of everything going right, things have gone haywire in a wrong way.

Because they gone haywire in a wrong way, it might look like God intended it to be like this in the first place. But that's far from the truth.

If I were omnipotent, I could eliminate all physical suffering right now with only the knowledge that I have today. Without touching on any free will that we may or may not have.

 

[Link]

If I were omnipotent, I could eliminate all physical suffering right now with only the knowledge that I have today. Without touching on any free will that we may or may not have.

It's not simply about free-will, but about meaningful will to exist. Some sort of way to truly love and be good.

 

[Bird123]

I wrote this in another thread, but thought it deserves a topic itself.

My understanding is God is doing his best to eliminate suffering, evil and guide us. The following post elaborates:

Salam

Corruption in land and sea is because of what humans hands has earned.

Suffering by humans to other humans, is not God's punishment or him afflicting it.

He tries us by each other and allows evil ones to cause suffering on earth.

Why doesn't he just get rid of all evil people. He does time and time again, destroy oppressors, and their day is coming.

However, he wishes for evil people to be saved as well.

God loves to forgive more then to punish. He is begging us to ask forgiveness from him. Who does that?

No one asks people who are evil towards them to ask forgiveness so they can forgive them. No one. If the person will ask forgiveness, it won't be by that person reaching out begging them to ask forgiveness so that they could on good terms.

God is nice, but there is limits to being nice. Life is a limited time. Die evil, and consequences are forever. But God is asking us to seek his forgiveness and pray for guidance. He has warned us about the Devils from Jinn because they are unseen parts of our psyche whether we notice or don't.

He wishes to guide us to that he can reward us.

If he can "force" love and make us see his beauty, he would. There is no forcing love, it has to come with freewill. When truth is clear beyond possibility of doubt and there is no way to doubt it at all no matter how much we might try, it's too late to love God, because the matter is decreed now and there is no reward that be given for faith.

The day of judgment people will know truth but at the same time, never be more blind to God and his truth, they will blind to his beauty and further astray in hate of him. Their prayers will always be in error because it can't have love at this point. It will be empty words.

God is trying to save us. What else can he do?

Too many signs have caused nations to perish in the past and the Mahdi (a) coming out when world is not ready can have consequences.

Yet it's upon God to save believers at the moment of peril and distress from their enemies, believers are asking disbelievers for peace and justice, so that the hour doesn't destroy them and world doesn't face the consequences of not being ready.

God never wanted to create this world in the first place. Satan was never meant to disobey God, Adam (a) elite friend of God was truthful so trusted Iblis, but still, why didn't he rely on Ahlulbayt (a) and reach out to them in moments of peril? After that, there was no choice, but to create this world, as he can't try repeat when we all saw consequences, and so had to create a world of trials. But successors of Adam (a) up to Idris (a) were meant to be followed but things went haywire, and Nuh (A) couldn't save them when he was sent. All this was not meant to happen.

A disease we inherited generation to generation after, is that when believers are distressed they call upon God but when saved from enemies and brought to safety, many of them turn on their backs and begin to associate with God being ungrateful. This even happened with children of Israel during Musa (a) lifetime let alone after!

And 313 believers of battle of badr and sincere companions of Mohamad (s) were built by God and his light. They witnessed many things in battle. And the ones who fought Mohammad (s) were thankful for being spared blood and forgiven from the companions as well. It looked good. If most stayed true, as expected they should, things wouldn't have gone bad after Mohammad (s). But they were apathetic and didn't remain resolved and patient, were tired of battles, and didn't come to aid of Ali (a) and Fatima (a) except some of them, which Ali (a) decided to spare their blood and not fight as a result.

God did everything he can, revealed Surah Auli-Imran, begging companions of Mohammad (s) not to turn on their backs. What else can he do.

Fatima (a) reminded them, Ali (a) reminded them, what can be done.

Are you telling me a Being capable of creating all this is Begging?? Give me a break!! Do you really think God begs for followers?? Doesn't this sound more like Religion??

God is at a Higher Level. There is no need to value all the petty things mankind holds so dear I see incorporated in what you say.

Your quote: There is no forcing Love. It has to come from free will.
My Answer: You are right.
One also can not understand what is evil unless one learns from living and experiencing all sides. Free will is necessary along with the bad results in order to understand evil choices are not good choices.

God counts on the results from our choices to teach us what the best choices really are. Don't count on the suffering to go away when it teaches and points to the best direction.

There really is no time limit on learning. It will never be too late to Love!!! After all, we have an eternity to make the journey. On the other hand, one can make the journey much easier. Make your best choices so that when they return to teach you what your choices really mean, the lesson will not be so hard to swallow.

I can make a suggestion, however as we all must see by now, so often lessons must be Lived and Learned to really Understand the best choices. What is the saying? Words are cheap. Actions speak louder than words.

God is not the monster that fries, threatens, blames, or abandons His children. There are much better ways.

Remember, a Being capable of creating all this is very very Smart. Which is more important? Punishing, threatening, and frying the kids OR Teaching all the children regardless of how hard the lessons are so that all will learn how to Love Unconditionally and be able to create a Heavenly state for themselves and others?

Do you really think the followers of any religion today could be placed in a heavenly state and the state would remain heavenly? Of course not! It will never happen until they really Understand How. This is our journey. Look around. It stares us all in the face.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[ppp]

It's not simply about free-will, but about meaningful will to exist. Some sort of way to truly love and be good.

I am capable of loving and being good without reference to suffering. Everyone is.

 

[Link]

Are you telling me a Being capable of creating all this is Begging?? Give me a break!! Do you really think God begs for followers?? Doesn't this sound more like Religion??

God is at a Higher Level. There is no need to value all the petty things mankind holds so dear I see incorporated in what you say.

Your quote: There is no forcing Love. It has to come from free will.
My Answer: You are right.
One also can not understand what is evil unless one learns from living and experiencing all sides. Free will is necessary along with the bad results in order to understand evil choices are not good choices.

God counts on the results from our choices to teach us what the best choices really are. Don't count on the suffering to go away when it teaches and points to the best direction.

There really is no time limit on learning. It will never be too late to Love!!! After all, we have an eternity to make the journey. On the other hand, one can make the journey much easier. Make your best choices so that when they return to teach you what your choices really mean, the lesson will not be so hard to swallow.

I can make a suggestion, however as we all must see by now, so often lessons must be Lived and Learned to really Understand the best choices. What is the saying? Words are cheap. Actions speak louder than words.

God is not the monster that fries, threatens, blames, or abandons His children. There are much better ways.

Remember, a Being capable of creating all this is very very Smart. Which is more important? Punishing, threatening, and frying the kids OR Teaching all the children regardless of how hard the lessons are so that all will learn how to Love Unconditionally and be able to create a Heavenly state for themselves and others?

Do you really think the followers of any religion today could be placed in a heavenly state and the state would remain heavenly? Of course not! It will never happen until they really Understand How. This is our journey. Look around. It stares us all in the face.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Salam

You and I should have one on one debate about hell and vengeance.

You are missing the point of the OP which is to present a theodicy, and see if any holes in it.

 

[Link]

I am capable of loving and being good without reference to suffering. Everyone is.

Didn't say otherwise. But you should see why suffering came to be, and why it exists at this level according to the Islamic theodicy I presented.

 

[ppp]

Didn't say otherwise.

It's not simply about free-will, but about meaningful will to exist. Some sort of way to truly love and be good.

Yes. You did say otherwise.

 

[Link]

Yes. You did say otherwise.

Okay let me re-explain:

God can create:

(1) World with no suffering possible to occur and can't happen no matter what.
(2) World with no suffering but it can possible occur but is not supposed to and the high probability of the design of it, is it will be with little or no suffering but there is a small chance things go haywire and suffering becomes great.
(3) World with suffering (for some wise reasons) intended from the first time.

I'm saying God intended (2). God could create (1) but that is a pale universe. That (1) is only possible if free-will is negated and we are "forced" to be good which is not good in the first place.

I agree with you (3) has no reason in itself. All theodicy in this sense fail for me. However (2) is possible.

Things meant to be perfect, but with room for things to go wrong. Unlikely scenario things go wrong. Since it's unlikely and was meant to happen, it requires an explanation of why we have a world of suffering.

The only way to create one, is to force creation or dazzle them with proofs with no room to deny and that no one would not submit which is not that meaningful.

 

[ppp]

Okay let me re-explain:

God can create:

(1) World with no suffering possible to occur and can't happen no matter what.
(2) World with no suffering but it can possible occur but is not supposed to and the high probability of the design of it, is it will be with little or no suffering but there is a small chance things go haywire and suffering becomes great.
(3) World with suffering (for some wise reasons) intended from the first time.

I'm saying God intended (2). God could create (1) but that is a pale universe. That (1) is only possible if free-will is negated and we are "forced" to be good which is not good in the first place.

I agree with you (3) has no reason in itself. All theodicy in this sense fail for me. However (2) is possible.

Things meant to be perfect, but with room for things to go wrong. Unlikely scenario things go wrong. Since it's unlikely and was meant to happen, it requires an explanation of why we have a world of suffering.

The only way to create one, is to force creation or dazzle them with proofs with no room to deny and that no one would not submit which is not that meaningful.

Under that hypothetical, your god is not doing his best to prevent suffering. Which goes back to my initial response to your claim that he is.