God is nice and is doing his best to eliminate suffering.

[KWED]

That is not going to happen to me. I am not a Christian.

Do you really think that only Christians loose their faith?
Even Abdulbaha's secretary left Bahaism.

Besides, I have endured all the tests thus far, and still have faith, even if I am not always happy with God. That is not a requirement for being a Baha'i.

I'm not saying that you will lose faith (you don't seem to have the cognitive abilities to recognise the flaws and inconsistencies in the ideology), just that it is impossible for you to know that you won't.

I do worship God because I express a reverence for God and respect God deeply.
Because I believe in Baha'u'llah, and Baha'u'llah said that worship of God is the paramount duty of man and the purpose of his life.

There you go, flip flopping again.
In the last post you stated that "worshiping god is not a requirement for a Bahai". Now you have reveres your position after I pointed out your error.
You clearly weren't aware of Bahaullah's quote on the issue before I posted it.

Sometimes I feel that God is unfair, unjust, and the cause of some of the suffering experienced by innocent people, but I do not act on my feelings, I act according to what I believe is right to do.

Why do you believe it is "right" to worship such a being, given that if they were a human parent behaving like that to their children you would report them to social services?

No, because feelings don't mean anything. Love is just a 'feeling' and there are different ways to express love, I do not 'feel love' for God but that does not mean I do not love God.

Love is a "feeling" if you do not feel love towards someone, you do not love them.
(Of course, you will deny this obvious fact).

I am glad you caught that -- My decree and patience under My trials.
No, there will be no flip-flopping. Clearly, God sends trials.

You have previously stated that god is not to blame for the bad stuff that happens to us.

Sure, there is rational argument against specific religions but not against the one true God. There is only one true God although there are many 'conceptions' of that God held by different religions..

If there is a "one true god", it is not the one described in any religion - including Bahaism.

We've been through this dozens of times. A person claiming that they are a Messenger of God is not evidence that they are a Messenger of God because anyone can make a claim. The evidence is what supports the claim. Apparently, you don't seem to understand the difference between a claim and evidence that supports the claim.

And the only thing you have presented to "support " his claim is him claiming that he is.

How does your life as an atheist versus my life as a devout believer suggest that there if there is a God, God is unfair and unjust?

Because he has bestowed blessings on me, despite me rejecting and attacking him, whilst he has visited s=constant suffering on you, despite your loving and worshiping him.
Given that he created mankind only to worship him, it also shows him to be irrational as well.

I do not believe that God is unfair and unjust, I sometimes feel that way. Do you know the difference between a belief and a feeling?

There you go, flip flopping again.
Earlier, you said...
"I do not believe that God is fair or just"
"You will never get an argument from me trying to convince you that life is fair, and that God is just, because I don't believe that."

No, it is simply a personal opinion based upon what some people observe in this world, things they do not like, which they blame God for.

No. It can be demonstrated that god is unjust and unfair based on the evidence of his actions. You have even conceded yourself that you don't believe that he is just or fair - so it must look like he isn't.
Ironically it is you who id just expressing an opinion (more like a hope) that he is just and fair, despite appearances.

I never said that my personal opinion proves that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be and I never said that my personal opinion proves that God exists. The fact that I am 100% certain is because I believe those with certainty.

So you are 100% certain that you believe that Bahaullah is a messenger of god, but you are not 100% certain that he actually is.

Who said that you are better off than me because you have no suffering? Who said that is a blessing?

Seems pretty obvious. I enjoy life. You have described it as "hell".

It might feel that way now, but this life is only temporary.

Indeed. So it is important to enjoy it and appreciate it while it lasts.

The next life is a completely different plane of existence.

There is no evidence or rational argument for an afterlife. The concept is partly designed for people with a hard life, to give them hope that there is better to come, to keep them in line and submit to their suffering.
As Seneca said... "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

Those who suffer most in this life will reap the rewards of that suffering in the next world because suffering builds character. Also there will be a recompense from God for the suffering we have endured.

You keep telling yourself that if it helps.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you really think that only Christians loose their faith?
Even Abdulbaha's secretary left Bahaism.

I believe it was Baha'u'llah's secretary, not that it matters. People do leave the Baha'i Faith for their own reasons but that does not prove anything about whether it is true or not.

I'm not saying that you will lose faith (you don't seem to have the cognitive abilities to recognise the flaws and inconsistencies in the ideology), just that it is impossible for you to know that you won't.

You mean what you believe are the flaws and inconsistencies in the ideology. That is just your personal opinion, so it is not proof of any flaws or inconsistencies.
It is impossible for me to know the future as only God knows the future.

There you go, flip flopping again.
In the last post you stated that "worshiping god is not a requirement for a Bahai". Now you have reveres your position after I pointed out your error.
You clearly weren't aware of Bahaullah's quote on the issue before I posted it.

Of course I knew that Baha'u'llah has enjoined us to worship God. What I was saying was that it is not a requirement in the sense that we can still be a Baha'i if we don't do everything we have been enjoined to do. The basis for being a Baha'i is the belief that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. Not all of us live up to all the requirements but life is a journey and we struggle to meet them as we go through life..

Why do you believe it is "right" to worship such a being, given that if they were a human parent behaving like that to their children you would report them to social services?

God is not a human, so to compare God to a human is the fallacy of false equivalence. God does not even have behavior, only humans have behavior. God has a will and wills things to happen.

Love is a "feeling" if you do not feel love towards someone, you do not love them.
(Of course, you will deny this obvious fact).

Love is much more than a feeling as I clearly pointed out. Love is an action. A feeling love towards God (or even other humans) is meaningless unless it is backed up by deeds that demonstrate that love.

“The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 156

You have previously stated that god is not to blame for the bad stuff that happens to us.

I have stated that God is not responsible for what we choose to do with our free will, but I said God is responsible for what we do not choose, which is our fate. That is in the OP of this thread:

Questions that believers cannot answer

If there is a "one true god", it is not the one described in any religion - including Bahaism.

And you know that how?

And the only thing you have presented to "support " his claim is him claiming that he is.

No, I have presented the evidence that supports His claim on this forum, over and over and over and over again.

Because he has bestowed blessings on me, despite me rejecting and attacking him, whilst he has visited constant suffering on you, despite your loving and worshiping him.
Given that he created mankind only to worship him, it also shows him to be irrational as well.

You had a certain fate and I had a different fate. There is no correlation between blessings and rejecting God as many believers have the blessings that you do. I am not representative of all believers, I just had a certain fate, at least so far in life, and I have suffered much. But I have also had many blessings, good health, a good job, and financial security, and there is hope the tide might turn because my life is in transition.

So you are 100% certain that you believe that Bahaullah is a messenger of god, but you are not 100% certain that he actually is.

I am 100% certain that He actually is.

Seems pretty obvious. I enjoy life. You have described it as "hell".

It is not obvious because there is more to life than mere enjoyment. What we can enjoy in this life is only temporary, and soon it will all pass away.

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329

That goes along with what Jesus said in John 12:24-26 and Matthew 16:23-26.

Indeed. So it is important to enjoy it and appreciate it while it lasts.

That's true. Even though this life is transitory, we are enjoined to enjoy life and appreciate it, and I plan to be doing that sooner than later.

There is no evidence or rational argument for an afterlife. The concept is partly designed for people with a hard life, to give them hope that there is better to come, to keep them in line and submit to their suffering.
As Seneca said... "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

You will find out that there is an afterlife after you die and are not dead. Till then, there is no point discussing it.

You keep telling yourself that if it helps.

It does not always help but at least I know it is true.

 

[KWED]

I believe it was Baha'u'llah's secretary, not that it matters. People do leave the Baha'i Faith for their own reasons but that does not prove anything about whether it is true or not.

The point was to show you that people do leave Bahaism, despite you claiming that it will never happen.
It was Abdul baha's secretary. He became disillusioned in part because of the behaviour of Abdulbaha and Shoghi effendi including their poor treatment of Iranian Bahais in favour of wester converts, the misuse of funds, and Effendi's apparent homosexuality.

You mean what you believe are the flaws and inconsistencies in the ideology. That is just your personal opinion, so it is not proof of any flaws or inconsistencies.

As I said, you don't have the capacity to recognise them

It is impossible for me to know the future as only God knows the future.

You earlier said "That is not going to happen to me."
More flip flopping caused by having to support contradictory positions.

Of course I knew that Baha'u'llah has enjoined us to worship God. What I was saying was that it is not a requirement in the sense that we can still be a Baha'i if we don't do everything we have been enjoined to do. The basis for being a Baha'i is the belief that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. Not all of us live up to all the requirements but life is a journey and we struggle to meet them as we go through life..

Yeah, course you did.

God is not a human, so to compare God to a human is the fallacy of false equivalence. God does not even have behavior, only humans have behavior. God has a will and wills things to happen.

Again, you fail to understand what an analogy is.
The point was to show that such behaviour from a human would be considered morally deficient and worthy of condemnation. Therefore from the perfect moral arbiter, such behaviour is even worse.

Love is much more than a feeling as I clearly pointed out. Love is an action. A feeling love towards God (or even other humans) is meaningless unless it is backed up by deeds that demonstrate that love.

Love is an emotion (a "feeling). You cannot love unless you feel it. Any actions cause d by love are actions, not feelings/emotions. Again, you are getting yourself tied up in knots through attempting to defend flawed and contradictory statements, or redefining words.

I have stated that God is not responsible for what we choose to do with our free will, but I said God is responsible for what we do not choose, which is our fate. That is in the OP of this thread:

So is god to blame for your suffering, or did you choose it?
I certainly did not choose to be healthy and privileged, so that is all god's doing.

And you know that how?

Because none of those god's make any sense. Claims made by/about them have been shown to be wrong.
Of course, god could be an incoherent idiot I suppose.

No, I have presented the evidence that supports His claim on this forum, over and over and over and over again.

No you haven't. You have merely claimed that he is a messenger of god because of who he claimed to be, and what you want him to be. Things like "his life, his works and his character" are not evidence that he was a messenger of a god that you Amit that you don't even know exists!

You had a certain fate and I had a different fate. There is no correlation between blessings and rejecting God as many believers have the blessings that you do. I am not representative of all believers, I just had a certain fate, at least so far in life, and I have suffered much. But I have also had many blessings, good health, a good job, and financial security,

So you cannot explain why god's actions seem exactly like random chance.

and there is hope the tide might turn because my life is in transition.

How can you have "hope"? Your fate is what god has decided it will be. Hoping, in fact, nothing can change that.

I am 100% certain that He actually is.

So, you are 100% certain that Bahaullah was an actual messenger of a god that you admit might not exist, that you only believe exists.

I keep allowing myself to be sucked back in to your nonsensical posts. I must try harder to resist.

 

[icehorse]

My understanding is God is doing his best to eliminate suffering, evil and guide us.

Late to thread, perhaps this has already been discussed:

For the sake of discussion, let's say the OP is correct. That accounts for some fraction of the suffering that conscious creatures endure. But not all suffering originates from the actions of evil people.

So how about the suffering that isn't created through evil, why does your god allow that to happen?

 

[Link]

So how about the suffering that isn't created through evil, why does your god allow that to happen?

Good question. He allows to happen to humble humans, keep them on edge for death, and this way as a mean to reform them. Also, he allows disability (such as my mental illness), as a means to see how society will treat such people. So we are tested with compassion to one another. How we treat deaf, blind and others all matter.

So both to frighten us so we don't take long life for granted as well as when it comes to chronic disability, as a means to try how compassionate we will be to each other and if we still regard such humans lives as sacred and important. Justice thus is a huge trial as is compassion to one another.

Of course, all such suffering is not beneficial if we (all) would obey God. So if humans and Jinn obey God and the Mahdi (a) - the last Messenger and leader for humanity, then all such havoc and corruption in land and sea will cease. No more natural disasters, no more diseases, no more disability, all will be gone.

 

[icehorse]

Good question. He allows to happen to humble humans, keep them on edge for death, and this way as a mean to reform them. Also, he allows disability (such as my mental illness), as a means to see how society will treat such people. So we are tested with compassion to one another. How we treat deaf, blind and others all matter.

So both to frighten us so we don't take long life for granted as well as when it comes to chronic disability, as a means to try how compassionate we will be to each other and if we still regard such humans lives as sacred and important. Justice thus is a huge trial as is compassion to one another.

Of course, all such suffering is not beneficial if we (all) would obey God. So if humans and Jinn obey God and the Mahdi (a) - the last Messenger and leader for humanity, then all such havoc and corruption in land and sea will cease. No more natural disasters, no more diseases, no more disability, all will be gone.

When I'm discussing people's notions about their god(s) it seems fair for me to say that - for the sake of discussion - I'm using the brain your god gave me. Given that, what you just described as your god's approach strikes me as very cruel, immoral and unethical. Now at this point many religious people will say to me something like "well god is mysterious". That answer does not cause me to stop thinking that the god you're describing is cruel. The good news is that I find that most descriptions of god I encounter depict god as cruel, so I'm not singling out your god.

 

[Link]

When I'm discussing people's notions about their god(s) it seems fair for me to say that - for the sake of discussion - I'm using the brain your god gave me. Given that, what you just described as your god's approach strikes me as very cruel, immoral and unethical. Now at this point many religious people will say to me something like "well god is mysterious". That answer does not cause me to stop thinking that the god you're describing is cruel. The good news is that I find that most descriptions of god I encounter depict god as cruel, so I'm not singling out your god.

Life is temporary. God's both hands (mercy and cruelty) are for mercy. He is trying to reform our souls and save us from disaster of becoming evil and irreformable.

Recall, the original world was that we all in be in paradise, and Angels and humans all worship God sincerely without heat of sun, without hardship, and without afflictions.

This is part of error handling.

 

[icehorse]

Life is temporary. God's both hands (mercy and cruelty) are for mercy. He is trying to reform our souls and save us from disaster of becoming evil and irreformable.

So he built us broken. How is that nice?

 

[Link]

So he built us broken. How is that nice?

He creates every soul blank sheet. Pushed towards goodness by nature of their own souls, but the surroundings includes Iblis and his forces make the trial difficult. This world, we influence each other, and he knows without these policies, little chance is there that we get guided and go right direction.

Of course another component is what you mentioned. We aren't created as instances of the straight path like Prophets and leaders he appoints.

And this was because in the pre-world, when he tested us with a covenant that is a promise to him as our Lord, but we weren't resolved enough for him to know we are truthful and to be chosen or not.

If we were resolved as the Prophets in sincerity, we would not require trial.

This is the issue, if he can create us all as perfect as Mohammad (s), he would've. But Mohammad (s) and Ali (a) and their family are exalted above others, because of their own sincerity to God and resolve when "his throne was upon the waters", they were utmost sincere then.

So Fatima (a) was pre-tested before her creation, and same with Ahlulbayt (a), before their 14 000 years of worship as lights under his throne, all souls were tested before that, and he found Ahlulbayt (a) the most sincere actually without an iota of non-sincerity and non-resolve. So he chose them above all others.

The Prophets (a) were grouped with their respective Ahlulbayts (mystic holy household) depending on their resolve and sincerity to God and Ahlulbayt (A) after that.

Adam (a) altered his path and wavered from trusting God and Ahlulbayt (a), but he was chosen, and so repented quickly and was proven to be exalted and chosen still. God distinguished him even more so when he repented and rose his rank.

 

[icehorse]

If we were resolved as the Prophets in sincerity, we would not require trial.

I understand I might be simplifying things a bit, but isn't this just a fancy way of saying "he created us broken"?

 

[samtonga43]

Tb No, I am not saying that I no longer worship God and I am not saying that I do not love God.
I just explained that to KWED in the the post above this one. Please read what I said.
Right, I have read your post above, as you asked me to.

Tb Worshiping God is not a 'requirement' for being a Baha'i, the requirement is that we believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation (Messenger) of God.
Wrong. I think you will find that worshiping God is indeed a 'requirement' for being a Baha'i. A Christian really should not have to tell you this.

You say that you revere and adore God, but you feel no love for Him and you don’t know if you want to be with Him forever.
And you also say that you have a logical mind. What have you done with it?

Tb I display fortitude under God's decree and patience under my trials.
Really?

Tb So according to Baha'u'llah I love God.
However, according to God, do you love Him? That’s the more relevant question.
In any case, how would the B.Man know that you love God? Only God knows if you love Him.

Tb ]There is no evidence or rational argument that suggests that there is no God. However, there is evidence that suggests that there is a God, and that evidence is the Messengers of God.
Nope. The evidence is the Triune God Himself. No messenger necessary; being God, He has no need for ‘messengers’.

Tb Feelings are not reliable
Sometimes feelings are very reliable.

Tb A discussion is where two people exchange ideas and hopefully both parties learn something new.
Well, I can honestly say I have learned much that is new to me from your posts, Tb.
I will be wary of Bahais from now on.

 

[Trailblazer]

However, according to God, do you love Him? That’s the more relevant question.

Yes, God knows I love Him because God knows I have faith and I am attracted to His Beauty, and because I serve His Cause tirelessly.

The second is the love that flows from man to God. This is faith, attraction to the Divine, enkindlement, progress, entrance into the Kingdom of God, receiving the Bounties of God, illumination with the lights of the Kingdom. This love is the origin of all philanthropy; this love causes the hearts of men to reflect the rays of the Sun of Reality.

Every morning and every evening when I bow down to God in humble supplication, I am expressing my love for Him. With everything I do for this Cause – whether I’m teaching a children’s class, hosting a devotional meeting or teaching the Faith – I am expressing my love to God. I can’t think of any more meaningful way for an individual to show their love for any being than contributing to the betterment of the world.

The Four Kinds of Love | Baha'i Blog

 

[Trailblazer]

The point was to show you that people do leave Bahaism, despite you claiming that it will never happen.

I never said it doesn't happen, I said it won't happen to me.

Again, you fail to understand what an analogy is.
The point was to show that such behaviour from a human would be considered morally deficient and worthy of condemnation. Therefore from the perfect moral arbiter, such behaviour is even worse.

God has no behavior since God is not a human. Only humans and other animals have behavior.
Apparently you do not know what the fallacy of false equivalence is. You cannot use an analogy to compare two things that are not equivalent.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

Love is an emotion (a "feeling). You cannot love unless you feel it. Any actions cause d by love are actions, not feelings/emotions. Again, you are getting yourself tied up in knots through attempting to defend flawed and contradictory statements, or redefining words.

I do feel love for God. A person can feel love and still have other feelings at other times.

So is god to blame for your suffering, or did you choose it?
I certainly did not choose to be healthy and privileged, so that is all god's doing.

If my suffering was not chosen by me it was my fate. God determines our fate so you can do the math. It was my fate to have parents that were not there for m, for example. I did not choose that, but I chose to invest my money wisely and save money so I have lots of money and assets. God did not fate that.

No you haven't. You have merely claimed that he is a messenger of god because of who he claimed to be, and what you want him to be. Things like "his life, his works and his character" are not evidence that he was a messenger of a god that you Amit that you don't even know exists!

I presented the evidence for Baha'u'llah being a Messenger of God, over and over and over again...
The claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah are in this post:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

So you cannot explain why god's actions seem exactly like random chance.

God's will (not actions) might seem like random chance, but nothing God does is random, it is all intentional and purposeful

How can you have "hope"? Your fate is what god has decided it will be. Hoping, in fact, nothing can change that.

You are correct in saying that my fate is what God has decided it will be and my hoping for anything else won't change my fate.

However, I do not know what my future fate will be, only God knows that.
I have hope because my life is not over yet and I believe there are brighter days to come.

So, you are 100% certain that Bahaullah was an actual messenger of a god that you admit might not exist, that you only believe exists.

No, that is not my position. I do not admit that God might not exist even if it is logically possible, since nobody has ever proven that God exists. I believe that God exists and that Baha'u'llah was an actual Messenger of God and that is a belief that I am 100% certain of.

 

[Watchmen]

I wrote this in another thread, but thought it deserves a topic itself.

My understanding is God is doing his best to eliminate suffering, evil and guide us. The following post elaborates:

Salam

Corruption in land and sea is because of what humans hands has earned.

Suffering by humans to other humans, is not God's punishment or him afflicting it.

He tries us by each other and allows evil ones to cause suffering on earth.

Why doesn't he just get rid of all evil people. He does time and time again, destroy oppressors, and their day is coming.

However, he wishes for evil people to be saved as well.

God loves to forgive more then to punish. He is begging us to ask forgiveness from him. Who does that?

No one asks people who are evil towards them to ask forgiveness so they can forgive them. No one. If the person will ask forgiveness, it won't be by that person reaching out begging them to ask forgiveness so that they could on good terms.

God is nice, but there is limits to being nice. Life is a limited time. Die evil, and consequences are forever. But God is asking us to seek his forgiveness and pray for guidance. He has warned us about the Devils from Jinn because they are unseen parts of our psyche whether we notice or don't.

He wishes to guide us to that he can reward us.

If he can "force" love and make us see his beauty, he would. There is no forcing love, it has to come with freewill. When truth is clear beyond possibility of doubt and there is no way to doubt it at all no matter how much we might try, it's too late to love God, because the matter is decreed now and there is no reward that be given for faith.

The day of judgment people will know truth but at the same time, never be more blind to God and his truth, they will blind to his beauty and further astray in hate of him. Their prayers will always be in error because it can't have love at this point. It will be empty words.

God is trying to save us. What else can he do?

Too many signs have caused nations to perish in the past and the Mahdi (a) coming out when world is not ready can have consequences.

Yet it's upon God to save believers at the moment of peril and distress from their enemies, believers are asking disbelievers for peace and justice, so that the hour doesn't destroy them and world doesn't face the consequences of not being ready.

God never wanted to create this world in the first place. Satan was never meant to disobey God, Adam (a) elite friend of God was truthful so trusted Iblis, but still, why didn't he rely on Ahlulbayt (a) and reach out to them in moments of peril? After that, there was no choice, but to create this world, as he can't try repeat when we all saw consequences, and so had to create a world of trials. But successors of Adam (a) up to Idris (a) were meant to be followed but things went haywire, and Nuh (A) couldn't save them when he was sent. All this was not meant to happen.

A disease we inherited generation to generation after, is that when believers are distressed they call upon God but when saved from enemies and brought to safety, many of them turn on their backs and begin to associate with God being ungrateful. This even happened with children of Israel during Musa (a) lifetime let alone after!

And 313 believers of battle of badr and sincere companions of Mohamad (s) were built by God and his light. They witnessed many things in battle. And the ones who fought Mohammad (s) were thankful for being spared blood and forgiven from the companions as well. It looked good. If most stayed true, as expected they should, things wouldn't have gone bad after Mohammad (s). But they were apathetic and didn't remain resolved and patient, were tired of battles, and didn't come to aid of Ali (a) and Fatima (a) except some of them, which Ali (a) decided to spare their blood and not fight as a result.

God did everything he can, revealed Surah Auli-Imran, begging companions of Mohammad (s) not to turn on their backs. What else can he do.

Fatima (a) reminded them, Ali (a) reminded them, what can be done.

God is “doing his best”? If he’s perfect, seems he’d be able to perfectly eliminate pain and suffering (or maybe not even create/allow it in the first place).

 

[Link]

God is “doing his best”? If he’s perfect, seems he’d be able to perfectly eliminate pain and suffering (or maybe not even create/allow it in the first place).

Seems but that is over simplification. See rest of thread and if you have more to add, I will respond to your points.

 

[Link]

I understand I might be simplifying things a bit, but isn't this just a fancy way of saying "he created us broken"?

If you mean our potential was not actualized to full potential, sure but he can't create us has his equals nor can he force us to be sincere and love him as we should have nor can he force resolve on us.

 

[samtonga43]

Tb Yes, God knows I love Him because God knows I have faith and I am attracted to His Beauty, and because I serve His Cause tirelessly.
His Beauty? But everything else you say about God negates your claim that you are ‘attracted to His beauty’. You really do flip-flop a lot, Tb.
Also you say you serve His cause tirelessly. How do you do this?

Tb Every morning and every evening when I bow down to God in humble supplication, I am expressing my love for Him. With everything I do for this Cause – whether I’m teaching a children’s class, hosting a devotional meeting or teaching the Faith – I am expressing my love to God.
You teach children’s classes?
You host devotional meetings?
You teach the Faith?
But you have said previously that you do none of the above.

More flip-flops?

 

[Trailblazer]

His Beauty? But everything else you say about God negates your claim that you are ‘attracted to His beauty’. You really do flip-flop a lot, Tb.
Also you say you serve His cause tirelessly. How do you do this

You continue to speak for me as if you know what is in by heart. Only God knows what is in my heart.
When I say I am attracted to God's Beauty that is exactly what I mean. There is no flip-flop since I never said I was NOT attracted to God's beauty.

I serve God's' Cause tirelessly by sharing the message of Baha'u'llah, which is the most important thing I will ever do in my life.

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.” Gleanings, p. 278

“Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.” Gleanings, p. 330

“Gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that haply thou mayest guide thy neighbor to the law of God, the Most Merciful. Such an act, verily, excelleth all other acts in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High.” Gleanings, p. 339

You teach children’s classes?
You host devotional meetings?
You teach the Faith?
But you have said previously that you do none of the above.

More flip-flops?

I never said that I do not teach children’s classes or host devotional meetings but I never claimed that I did either, so there is no flip-flop.

I just posted a blog wherein the blogger was explaining what HE DOES for the Faith, but that has nothing to do with what I DO for the Faith. It was a blog written by another person.
February 12, 2014, in Articles > Baha'i Life, by Dellaram

I never said I do not teach the Baha'i Faith so there is no flip-flop.

Do you ever have anything else to offer other than personal criticism of me?
I predicted to my best friend @Truthseeker that it was just a matter of time before you found me and started up again, and I was right.

 

[samtonga43]

Tb: When I say I am attracted to God's Beauty that is exactly what I mean. There is no flip-flop since I never said I was NOT attracted to God's beauty.
You certainly have not shown in your posts that you are attracted to His beauty.

Tb: I never said that I do not teach children’s classes or host devotional meetings but I never claimed that I did either, so there is no flip-flop.
As others have pointed out, Tb, you contradict yourself continually. You said more than once that you do not mix with other Bahais in real life, and I am quite sure that you have never taught children. The very idea is laughable.

Tb: I just posted a blog wherein the blogger was explaining what HE DOES for the Faith, but that has nothing to do with what I DO for the Faith. It was a blog written by another person.
Exactly. As you say, it has nothing to do with what you do for the faith. But I did not ask what this blogger does for the faith. What he does is irrelevant. I asked what you do for the faith.

Tb: I never said I do not teach the Baha'i Faith so there is no flip-flop.
Hmmm...Interesting. So where do you teach?

Tb: Do you ever have anything else to offer other than personal criticism of me?
I criticize the statements you make with which I disagree, and I criticize your illogical thinking processes, Tb. I am not alone, as you may have noticed. Personal criticism? I know what you write; I don’t know YOU. Do you understand the difference?

Tb: I predicted to my best friend @Truthseeker that it was just a matter of time before you found me and started up again, and I was right.
Tsk! Fallacy of Unwarranted Assumption. Why? Because I never lost you.
(I am intrigued by the notion of your best friend being out there in cyberspace. Is he really better than your friends in real life?)

 

[Muffled]

I wrote this in another thread, but thought it deserves a topic itself.

My understanding is God is doing his best to eliminate suffering, evil and guide us. The following post elaborates:

Salam

Corruption in land and sea is because of what humans hands has earned.

Suffering by humans to other humans, is not God's punishment or him afflicting it.

He tries us by each other and allows evil ones to cause suffering on earth.

Why doesn't he just get rid of all evil people. He does time and time again, destroy oppressors, and their day is coming.

However, he wishes for evil people to be saved as well.

God loves to forgive more then to punish. He is begging us to ask forgiveness from him. Who does that?

No one asks people who are evil towards them to ask forgiveness so they can forgive them. No one. If the person will ask forgiveness, it won't be by that person reaching out begging them to ask forgiveness so that they could on good terms.

God is nice, but there is limits to being nice. Life is a limited time. Die evil, and consequences are forever. But God is asking us to seek his forgiveness and pray for guidance. He has warned us about the Devils from Jinn because they are unseen parts of our psyche whether we notice or don't.

He wishes to guide us to that he can reward us.

If he can "force" love and make us see his beauty, he would. There is no forcing love, it has to come with freewill. When truth is clear beyond possibility of doubt and there is no way to doubt it at all no matter how much we might try, it's too late to love God, because the matter is decreed now and there is no reward that be given for faith.

The day of judgment people will know truth but at the same time, never be more blind to God and his truth, they will blind to his beauty and further astray in hate of him. Their prayers will always be in error because it can't have love at this point. It will be empty words.

God is trying to save us. What else can he do?

Too many signs have caused nations to perish in the past and the Mahdi (a) coming out when world is not ready can have consequences.

Yet it's upon God to save believers at the moment of peril and distress from their enemies, believers are asking disbelievers for peace and justice, so that the hour doesn't destroy them and world doesn't face the consequences of not being ready.

God never wanted to create this world in the first place. Satan was never meant to disobey God, Adam (a) elite friend of God was truthful so trusted Iblis, but still, why didn't he rely on Ahlulbayt (a) and reach out to them in moments of peril? After that, there was no choice, but to create this world, as he can't try repeat when we all saw consequences, and so had to create a world of trials. But successors of Adam (a) up to Idris (a) were meant to be followed but things went haywire, and Nuh (A) couldn't save them when he was sent. All this was not meant to happen.

A disease we inherited generation to generation after, is that when believers are distressed they call upon God but when saved from enemies and brought to safety, many of them turn on their backs and begin to associate with God being ungrateful. This even happened with children of Israel during Musa (a) lifetime let alone after!

And 313 believers of battle of badr and sincere companions of Mohamad (s) were built by God and his light. They witnessed many things in battle. And the ones who fought Mohammad (s) were thankful for being spared blood and forgiven from the companions as well. It looked good. If most stayed true, as expected they should, things wouldn't have gone bad after Mohammad (s). But they were apathetic and didn't remain resolved and patient, were tired of battles, and didn't come to aid of Ali (a) and Fatima (a) except some of them, which Ali (a) decided to spare their blood and not fight as a result.

God did everything he can, revealed Surah Auli-Imran, begging companions of Mohammad (s) not to turn on their backs. What else can he do.

Fatima (a) reminded them, Ali (a) reminded them, what can be done.

Come in the person of the Paraclete which He has done.